Hardcell only spears.

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BaiterofBAMC
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Hardcell only spears.

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2013-02-24

With the advances in stabbing tip construction and the use of Ensolite to make safer stabbing tips for swords. I was wondering what the thoughts are now in regards to making a hardcell only spear. Same basic construction of a base, but instead of that last layer being open cell, we switch that with a thick layer of ensolite (around 1" worth).

Any thoughts pro and con about moving towards this style on construction?

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-02-25

I have made a design for spears that I have used for over 20 years straight using open cell tips

they are not the smallest nor the hardest but they are proven safe

if spear tips moved to hard cell for a spear over 8' I personally would fear I could break a rib if I really tried and I am not the strongest of our members .... by using stance balence and weight distribution you could really and I mean really rock someones world

maby on a spear used one handed but on something with gurth and weight I think it would be a bad idea... cause remember often times long spears end up in peoples faces - neck area when they are used incorectly or blocked incorectly add in the person charging at you when you throw the shot = hospital time...

just my 5 cents

feel free to make one and test it with your friends and if you think it is safe then present it to the nc for testing...

I just fear you will only be wasting your time... to add enough cushion you would have to use a few layers and when you do that the chance the tip turns when striking goes up ... lots of factors to consider

and remember also that a skilled spearman can full strike several times in a very very short time frame - which would also affect safety if the type of foam used has a time that it takes to recover fully from each strike
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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

My 7' black glaives have had ensolite stabbing tips for 3 years. It's hard, but safe. No complaints. It's also on a band shoppe pole, so: NOT HEAVY... that's the BIG reason it doesn't warrant complaints with how hard I stab. Also, it breaks down REALLY fast. Like 3 Darkon events, or 2 days at Ragnarok. I will be taking backup tips to Rag this year.

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BaiterofBAMC
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2013-02-25

Oh, for reference. http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,18500.0.htmlThe design has been around in Dag for about 3 years now with apparently varying success.

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2013-02-25

We've made some pretty sweet spears this past year and you can certainly use ensolyte to reduce the amount of soft cell needed on the tip. Ensolyte also creates a great transition of foam density that IMO keeps coring down.

The problem is an ensolyte stabby on a blade kit impacts and compresses much differently than say, a flat disc of ensolyte on a spear. It's super safe on the contour and density of the bladekit tip. So to do this, you would have to innovate a design that is very different from a traditional spear built up like a cylinder.

Picture taking Thrush' glaive, and cutting 80 percent of the blade off, leaving just the stab. That is what you'd have to do IMO. And in that case, the current rules say the spear must be 4" diameter, so it would fail due to spec. Long story short: it is doable but you would have to seriously innovate a new design, and possible get rules changed to do so. Probably much easier to use ensolyte but also use a little soft. Keira's spear is pretty sweet, check it out some time.
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2013-02-25

BaiterofBAMC wrote:Oh, for reference. http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,18500.0.htmlThe design has been around in Dag for about 3 years now with apparently varying success.


That guy's design is great, except I would use MC foam and a bandsoppe pole core. For the tip his 12B method is more or less what I do...1" of ensolyte and a thin layer of open cell over that.
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Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-02-25

That's basically how I make my SCA spears.

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by jayjay » 2013-02-26

open cell doesn't really do much. it collapses too quickly and doesn't absorb much force and breaks down super fast.
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-26

if you wrap it in tape as you are affixing the cloth cover, it's ok for a while.. you know, the way every spear was made back in the day... lol

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-02-26

You know... what it comes down to is 'is it safe no matter who uses it'? The only way for weapon and armor tech to advance is to experiment. Build one. I'm edger to see it. In fact, build two... if it's safe, I want one. :P
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-26

Hence the Elidorian heavy ass SCA spears should fail. They are unsafe no matter who uses them.

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-02-26

rofl ... the elidorian spears for the most part use both hard cell AND open cell - the open cell is actually the firm greay open cell that does stand up for years, it does have resistance, and is easy to deal with and support if needed ... saying all open cell is crap shows that you have not seen all open cell that is out there :)

I buy it at about 85$ a sheet fyi but a sheet lasts me a few years and if you look at alot of the spears on the feild a great percentage I have made and they have stayed in use till thier core breaks - that is the only flaw with them that I have seen lol
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-26

You missed my point and "rofl'd" at something that isn't funny.

Aethilgar: safe is safe
Thrush: agreed, that's why those battering rams Elidor has shouldn't be allowed as their weight does not allow them to be safe and they have hospitalized people.
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I may be paraphrasing a tad. *smirk* I have made a few open cell spears and daggers and stab tips in my time, and they were all just fine. Remember beer coozies with open cell in em as stab tips? Junk, but safe.

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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-03-04

These spears are actually pretty awesome. I used a 2.5 one at a Bel event once, you can stab the heck out of people with it too. I was hit with it a few times and it was not bad. It felt uncomfortable, but it didn't suck for a long time. I will also agree with Thrush that some of the spears out there currently are pretty heavy and should not pass. The new ones Wraith made with the square heads are pretty boss though.
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Ericson » 2013-03-04

I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?

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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-04

Ericson wrote:I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?

Page 85. Right under "flails are for wusses" and right above "AoE is overpowered".

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-04

I wear metal, and metal that's good at dissipating force, at that. That being said, I'm ok with some of the harder stuff. We now have people stabbing the * out of each other with 6ft blackswords using seat-foam and glaives out there with almost 3 inches of the stuff. Meh.

I want zero tears when the stuff becomes commonplace and I skewer your GF/Babymomma/Little brother/ Semi-retarded cousin with one. No tears. Not one single tear.

Beyond that, heck, I'm on board.
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Ericson » 2013-03-04

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:Page 85. Right under "flails are for wusses" and right above "AoE is overpowered".


The proposals that pass Senate these days....

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Inox
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Inox » 2013-03-04

Ericson wrote:I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?


Weapons have, in the past, been failed for being simply too heavy. The rulebook states, p. 17: "The most important consideration when constructing weapons and armor must always be safety. Weapon and Armor Marshals may fail a piece of equipment at any time if it is deemed unsafe, even if it has passed a Marshals inspection previously."

Extremely weighty weapons have an impact that cannot be sufficiently mitigated by foam. They make it easy to dislocate joints and potentially break bones simply due to mass. Therefore, when the weapons marshals encounter a weapon they feel packs too much wallop to be safe for striking other players on the field, they are well within their rights to fail it.
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-04

Ericson wrote:I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?


Nope, but we weapons marshals can fail anything we deem unsafe. And as long as we are not required to wear plate, we must take some safety precautions. Otherwise, why have weapons check at all, right? 8+ foot spears who's core weigh a ridiculous amount, no matter the amount of foam, can break ribs and do the things Inox was mentioning. And they have. This is why we weapons check. Sadly, many weapons marshals wear plate and don't have someone stab them in anger with some of the spears I mentioned. I am a huge fan of uncomfortable but safe in the name of safety. Hence I like the "ensolite" or "marine" foam stab tips, I feel they are safest, on safe cores...

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2013-03-07

I tend to hate specific material requirement on weapons, but I could stand by mandatory bandshoppe poles for spear cores...or the banning of the 2" wood cores. For all the reasons stated above.

Amazing some people are scared of ensolyte, but don't mind cracked ribs from a 2" hardwood tree with a sofa cushion on the end.
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-07

Sir Caetrel wrote:I tend to hate specific material requirement on weapons, but I could stand by mandatory bandshoppe poles for spear cores...or the banning of the 2" wood cores. For all the reasons stated above.

Amazing some people are scared of ensolyte, but don't mind cracked ribs from a 2" hardwood tree with a sofa cushion on the end.


Absolutely!!! Or SCA spears they proudly "just barely made safe" enough to play Darkon. "You should see what I can do with this WITHOUT the foam" shouldn't be part of any conversation...

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-03-07

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Sir Caetrel wrote:I tend to hate specific material requirement on weapons, but I could stand by mandatory bandshoppe poles for spear cores...or the banning of the 2" wood cores. For all the reasons stated above.

Amazing some people are scared of ensolyte, but don't mind cracked ribs from a 2" hardwood tree with a sofa cushion on the end.


Absolutely!!! Or SCA spears they proudly "just barely made safe" enough to play Darkon. "You should see what I can do with this WITHOUT the foam" shouldn't be part of any conversation...

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Too true
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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-03-07

You can make spears that strike safely (and harmlessly) with wooden cores. I'm not saying all wooden spears are safe. I'm just saying that each spear should be taken individually and judged for how it feels and not what it's made of. Just as all ensolyte stab tips are not safe , wooden spears are not dangerous (in general) . Everything really comes down to general technique.

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Re: Hardcell only spears.

Post by AndorOfDargarth » 2013-03-15

I could be wrong, but I think that Darkon requires much softer spear tips - and much harder stabs - than Belegarth does (at least at groups in the NW). Darkonians stab for the rafters compared to other groups, which are more into yoga foam / squishy closed cell stab tips. Throwing that out there.

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