Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

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Inox
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Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Inox » 2012-04-09

I was distressed to find out that Darkon dues are now $5 for day events as well as campouts.

I was all in favor of raising dues to keep in line with costs, but this is absurd. Even $3 dues like Dag would have given us 50% more money per event.

How have things suddenly moved to costing so much more than in previous years that we must now pay 2.5x what we paid previously? When I was president, we were often operating with over a 10G surplus. What in the hell is going on?

A lot of people will not want to pay $5 just to come fight in a field for a few hours on a random Sunday, and for many others in our game, a few dollars really does matter (especially given the current cost of gas to get there). Expect this to have a chilling effect on attendance, which will lower our overall take anyhow.

This is dumb, Darkon. Let's change this before we choke off our growth and alienate large chunks of our membership.
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Prince Andrick
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-04-09

It was presented to and discussed in Senate. The numbers to support the increase were presented and are justified. Darkon actually ran at a very significant loss the last 2 years and our treasury was (and is) dangerously low.

I don't think $5 for an afternoon of fun is anywhere near out of hand. It's much less then a movie for example. Should we find we are running at a huge profit, I will be the first one to propose scaling dues back.
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-09

Take it up with your Senators.
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-09

<this>
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Strauts » 2012-04-09

I agree with Inox. It feels like I'm getting jacked at check in for a game I already shoulder the majority of the costs.

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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-09

When one plays any sport (outside of school sports), the majority of the equipment cost is on the player, and they also play dues. How is this any different? The times when the equipment costs aren't shouldered by the player are the times when dues are so high that there is a budget to pay for equipment for the players.

I'll give you a hint on how much money that is...

Not $5.
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Inox
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Inox » 2012-04-09

Why are we suddenly paying so much more to run this game than we did previously, when we also previously maintained a huge surplus?

The bottom line is that $5 dues will hurt membership & attendance, and then you'll have to jack costs up even higher, as there will be fewer people paying for the insurance, sites, first aid kits, etc.

This makes no sense.
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-09

Spilled milk. I made it clear how I feel about this. From here on out I think it would be wise to look at ways to encourage young players and new players to attend. Some ideas off the cuff...

1. First battle is free.

2. Lower dues for anyone under the age of 21.

3. Bring A Friend policy...Bring out a brand new player and your dues are only $2 for that event. Or something better for bringing a new player, but you get the idea...

4. Attendance drive day..Why not have one event a year where we try to get every Darkonian to attend for a "Reunion Battle" Lot of these guys and gals just need one event to get hooked again. We have over 4,000 past and present members...

We need to look for ways to grow our base! The main reason they had to increase dues is average attendance is way down. If we were pulling 250 people per event money would be rolling in.

If we don't do anything at this point, the $5 dues is going to have a disastrous effect on our long term health. This game was built by broke-ass kids, not gainfully employed 30 somethings. If we alienate the young, we are *.
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-09

This is a non-profit corporation, at the end of the year the annual report should contain all the financials, sadly this has not been provided by previous EBs but the membership should be DEMANDING it...and it is required.

We presented a budget to the Senate, I expect that budget to remain about the same for the foreseeable future and have something on hand to cover unforeseen costs. This is the cost of doing business.

Gerard's ideas for increasing attendance don't suck.
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Inox
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Inox » 2012-04-09

Previous EBs of which I was a member specifically provided financial data as part of the handover process.

We operated with a considerable surplus.

You could have raised day events to $3 and campouts to $7 (or $10!) and acquired 50% more money each year for the game. I fail to see how the costs of running Darkon could have possibly increased 50% since 2009.
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Inox
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Inox » 2012-04-09

Sir Caetrel wrote:We need to look for ways to grow our base! The main reason they had to increase dues is average attendance is way down. If we were pulling 250 people per event money would be rolling in.


Which is another point I made: If we drop attendance (due to higher dues), we take in less in gross receipts.

When we were pulling 200, having everyone pay $3 would still give us $600.

If we have 100, even at $5, we make only $500. Did we even have 100 people there on Sunday?

Eventually, if our numbers go low enough, we'll reach a point where we have to consider even higher dues just to sustain ourselves. Then, we might as well be a charity rather than just a non-profit, and the game will be in its death throes.

Sir Caetrel wrote:If we don't do anything at this point, the $5 dues is going to have a disastrous effect on our long term health. This game was built by broke-ass kids, not gainfully employed 30 somethings. If we alienate the young, we are *.


Exactly. Could not agree more.

We're also going to alienate cross-gamers, by the way. Nothing like charging more than other games to make people want to try yours. :/

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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-09

This was not some surprise change in the rules last year at the triumverate meeting it was brought up that we are now starting to not have the funds needed to run our game close to a 1/2 year later and there have been many conversations on this subject...

Do you not remember http://darkonsunofficialmessageboard.yu ... attle-Dues that was posted last year on the DUMB?

Just because a few years ago when we still had many free sites to go and fight the amount we as a organization has changed (we used ccbc and redland alot) now we need more funds to operate and that not is in small part to some things that happened BEFORE the current EB got into running things ... they are to be commended for keeping our sites that we still have and working HARD to get us new sites and yes some of these sites COST funds...

And yes in 2 years with the amount of sites we have lost and the discussion of actually getting tape and weapons up to snuff and making sure we are on the up and up with the books I support what the current EB has made possible... for us to continue to be a organization going into the future
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-09

This post needs to be moved to General. It is not a rules question.
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Inox
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Inox » 2012-04-10

Changes to the rulebook regarding payment of dues at events, that were discussed by Senate, are not a rule issue?

...still amazed that such a large change didn't have its own topic. I mean, we make a topic for the smallest change to the rules, and this is huge.
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Karma » 2012-04-10

Let's not get hostile over this.

I'm not a big fan of the price increase myself. I know of at least two people that were caught completely off-guard by this and had to ask to borrow money yesterday. On the other side of the argument though - Inox, yesterday's attendance (or lack thereof) is not a good example of the price hike's effect on the game. Holiday events are notorious for having low attendance.

There's a simple way to address this issue. Make the budget presented at senate public. Present it here on the forum for everyone to see, not just those at senate. It's difficult to argue with math.

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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-10

I seriously doubt the price hike had anything to do with the poor attendance yesterday. You do realize it was easter right? and most of the people who have been fighting for 10+ years have other things more important to them than stick fighting.

Now if you see a low attendence for 3 events in a row, you may be on to something.
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Ericson » 2012-04-10

So when are we going to be able to see the budget, rental costs, etc? That would make this entire discussion easier. I've seen it repeatedly said in numerous threads that the Darkon budget would be available to all members. If this increase in dues is really necessary, it will show in the budget. If it is not, that will also show. It's been said since that original thread in December 2011 that the budget would be available.

I am not saying that I necessarily distrust anyone involved in this process, I just think it would clarify the actual financial position of the club and demonstrate to everyone why this is necessary. It is hard to argue with numbers and facts. It is pointless to continue any discussion without the facts.

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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-10

Ericson wrote:So when are we going to be able to see the budget, rental costs, etc? That would make this entire discussion easier. I've seen it repeatedly said in numerous threads that the Darkon budget would be available to all members. If this increase in dues is really necessary, it will show in the budget. If it is not, that will also show. It's been said since that original thread in December 2011 that the budget would be available.

I am not saying that I necessarily distrust anyone involved in this process, I just think it would clarify the actual financial position of the club and demonstrate to everyone why this is necessary. It is hard to argue with numbers and facts. It is pointless to continue any discussion without the facts.


We provided budget information to the Senate at the meeting prior to the vote. Outside of that it will be in the Annual Report. I have also been informed we are filing our tax information as we speak and that is also available. I believe there is a way to see previous tax information as well, I will see if the treasurer can get a link for you to the IRS website for that...
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Karma » 2012-04-10

Is there some reason that the budget can't be posted here? I don't really see the necessity for them game as a whole to wait for the annual report.

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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-10

Because I am not going to post it here? Pretty simple. Why can't you let us do our jobs and get things organized before you start the conspiracy theories. We provided the needed information to the Senate, the Senate agreed.

Now let us take care of business so the next EB can better provide for the entire club, to include regular budgets and updates.

Thank you.
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-10

Ladies and gentlemen I feel as if I need to speak up reguarding this and both the direction it has gone and how it looks.

1. The game by the math needed more money to be brought in to function... the numbers have been presented properly by the last adminstration last year in December at the tryumverate meeting and within 4 months the current administration has been able to WITHIN THE RULES raise the dues to cover the difference.

2. We have lost many sites for various reasons NOT ONE OF WHICH was caused by the current adminstration.

3. The current adminstration has managed to actually find sites AND keep them.

4. The current adminstration has taken on the task of reviewing our bylaws to insure we meet irs and tax regulations... at the same time the commitee that was set up has members from most of the current countries.

5. Yes the sites we are now using cost more then our other sites we used BUT WE HAVE SITES TO USE.

6 Yes the insurance we pay has gone up among other things BUT we still have insurance.

I could go one and on and on but the reality is that the current EB is performing their duties honorably - they are accounting for problems and correcting them BEFORE WE ALL SHOW UP SOMEWHERE and find that we can not fight there that day. I commend John for the job him and the other EB members are doing and this attack on the VOLUNTEER job they perform sickens me greatly... It turns my stomach to personally attack those who serve the game we all play and love.

If you do not like the amounts that HAVE BEEN APPROVED IN SENATE then propose a change but in the mean time shut it and let them do thier jobs please so that we all can still beat each other up and pretend we do not like each other.

There have been many proposed ideas here that would help our game lets keep moving forward adjusting as needed till a happy balence is met - maby later we can adjust the amount we pay down or find a alternative but that has left to be seen.

THANK YOU JOHN AND THE EB FOR THE THANKLESS JOB YOU PREFORM!!!!!
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Karma » 2012-04-10

Paranoid much, Jon?

Unless I missed something, I haven't started any conspiracy theories. I requested that people not get hostile and worked up, and then made a simple request for information that should be readily available. When that request was denied, I wanted to know the reasons for it.

None of this is in any way accusatory or a "conspiracy theory", and I'm surprised you would see it that way. It's a logical train of thought: People are questioning the reason for the increase, and asking for information that they have every right to see. Therefore, the easiest and best way to stop the griping is to present said information and let people see for themselves why the prices were increased. As I stated, you can't argue with math.

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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-10

The EB made the tough call as is their job, and we are lucky to have a solid EB that is willing to do so. As Cailen said, thank you John & Co. for your efforts and for having the forsight to take care of business. I hope my difference of opinion on this matter has not come across as an attack in any sense. And remember folks...the Senate majority and the EB majority did this. We are all accountable for the decision.

I do think the raise to $5 will create problems for us, but they are not insurmountable. At this point we need to focus on driving attendance up. Who knows, we could get solvent and get attendance back up to a high level and be reducing dues in a year or two.
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Inox
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Inox » 2012-04-11

I don't see any reason why we should wait for some "Annual Report", whenever that's coming (EOY, maybe?) before the realm at large sees the numbers.

Is there some reason it cannot be posted in a clear format? Is there some compelling argument against transparency?
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Re: Dues Increase to $5 for Day Events?!

Post by Pope Faleris I » 2012-04-11

to cut to the chase.based on my knowledge of the situation.

previously, we had illegally arranged sites, and were destroying ball fields everywhere. We were lucky to not be sued by CCBC.

we have to carry significantly more insurance due to our size, and nature of the game, to access sites i.e. Balt county. The paid sites (have you all noticed they arent athletic fields anymore?) require a lot more, imsurance wise, but hey, no more soccer moms. AND they charge us money to be there> Running the game legitimately, costs alot more than winging it. Seriously, how we made it so far with out anyone being arrested, or sued is beyond me.
The paid sites are PAID. we werent using any paid sites prior, short of campouts. that is up to 22 events per year, that now have a fee attached to be there, where as we paid nothing for those 22 events, save maybe a handful of permits. The "surplus" will be gone sooner than later, if dues are not raised. I am not certain the specific increment is the "magic number" but it is absolutely necessary to have raised dues, significantly. (screw any typos, im in a rush)

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