Change in how land action declarations are handled

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Snudge
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Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-10

After talking to the magistrate at event today, we have reached a fair conclusion about how land action declarations are handled.

Per the rules "Once all declarations are received and the end of Land Events is announced, the Land Marshal will determine all encounters to occur at the next event and publicly announce all Land Actions that will take
place. This announcement will take place before the end of the day’s regular events."

Obviously this flies in the face of darkon's tradition and contradicts other sections of the rule book regarding how we determine what monsters are faced in regards to dice rolling.

For the future how we will handle declarations is thus.
All current methods I allow for contacting me as land marshal remain valid
7 days prior to event you must have your declarations in to me. That is the sunday before event.
I will post the actions each country has declared by the deadline, if you don't get it in. Sorry but no land action for you.

The example of this would be as follows, this is not accurate in anyway and is just an example of what to expect

3/23
AQ-Land Search
BAMC-No declared action
Ched-Invasion
Chosen Blood- Invasion
Elidor-No declared action
Exsilium-No declared action

And so on and so on. I know this is a change that will take some getting used to but I do ask that everyone cooperate in its implementation as I am required by the rules to announce ahead of time what every country has declared.
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exoduscleric
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-03-10

Per Snudge's request, I am moving the FB discussion here.

"Let me ask for clarification on a point as I'm not sure I'm getting it correct. As of now, let's say for example that New Mordom wanted to declare war on Ched. As it's been, we would declare through the land marshal and it would be made public before the event ended.... giving Ched the 2 weeks between events to prepare. If I'm reading this correctly, people could now give notice to declare war/invade and wouldn't recieve notice till the end of the preceeding weekend... giving them 7 days to prepare. Is that the way this would work or am I understanding incorrectly?"

His response was
"Assuming that we had been previous enforcing this rule.Yes Ched would have had two weeks notice.
And under the rule as we plan to enforce it, Ched would have minimum 1 week notice posted to the boards. The rules are sort of contradictory based on how/when we roll for what is on a land search. So a compromise was come to based on my on the field interpretation of the intent of the rules and an extended discussion with the magistrate to get a final rules clarification on my ruling"

I responded :
"The rule is already in existence though. I wasn't aware it wasn't being followed. Countries should be notified in a manner that gives them 2 weeks (and the off Darkon weekend) to prep for an attack. This is a pretty big change and I respectfully think it's something that Senate would have to decide to change and not just something that the Land marshal and Magistrate could decide. The announcement of land actions always had to do with wars and invasions. Who was fighting what on a land search wasn't anything anyone needed to know in advance. I really don't think countries should be shorted of prep time or have to check the Darkon sites to know they have a land war to prep for."

Apologies on the cut and paste, but easier than rewording it all.

exoduscleric
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-03-10

I think the issue with this is that as the rule was written, land searches were not considered the same type of actions as wars/ invasions. No one cares if people are land searching. People want to know and should know with 2 weeks notice if they're preping for war. There is a rule existing stating that Land actions (and I really think it was only ever meant to mean war type land actions) are announced before the end of the preceeding event. If we're not following it now, then we should. If we're going to change that , then I respectfully believe that's something that needs to go through senate.

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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-10

Snudge wrote:

The example of this would be as follows, this is not accurate in anyway and is just an example of what to expect

3/23
AQ-Land Search
BAMC-No declared action
Ched-Invasion
Chosen Blood- Invasion
Elidor-No declared action
Exsilium-No declared action


Seems pretty accurate from my end. Heeyooooo
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Havoc
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Havoc » 2013-03-10

Excepting the current rules require notice to be given at the event prior.

Snudge
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-10

So I also posted this to the facebook group, because let's face it people don't check the forums. However people have raised issue there so I am giving the explanation here as to why my on the field ruling was thus.

The reason this ruling was made is as follows
Page 76 covers declarations of land actions
It states that once I receive all declarations, which you must have in by the end of land events that day
I will publicly announce all encounters to the realm.

However page 72 states
At the time the land search takes place[...] At the option of the land marshal he will either select a party member to roll [....] or at a time of his chosing with a witness, roll themselves.

Page 72 also states that attackers have till 1pm to declare their final numbers to me for invasions



These rules are in contradiction to each other. How can I announce all encounters for next event if at my option I can allow said encounter to be rolled at the time of land search by the adventure party. Alternatively, if I have to make a public declaration for all encounters, how are invading countries going to declare their numbers to me in such a away as I might discharge my duties as described. I can't, and a grey area is created.

Under the new bylaws, on the field interpretation of gray areas in the land rules falls to the land marshal.
My ruling was the initial compromise post that leads this. Under the new bylaws, the magistrate has final ruling on clarifications of gray areas. We've talked, we agree.

I'm open to proposals to fix this, but by the time something actually passes senate we still haven't solved the problem. This was the best compromise available between how land actions have been managed in recent memory, and the contradictory rules as written. However if enough country reps tell me they want to goto a total by the book style I will. But please be aware that the headaches this will cause everyone involved with land to rise quite rapidly.
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Snudge
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-10

Dane suggested something to me, which sparked an idea. Are people better with the following?

Country Land Liaisons, you are gonna be required to stick around with the LM until the end of all land events.
At their conclusion, everyone will declare the type of action they are choosing for their next event. Be it attacking another nation or land searching. There will be no public announcement to the realm as a whole, but I will post the results on the boards, without revealing who is exploring what hexes, or what numbers you may face in an invasion.
However with the land liaisons present when everyone declares, everyone thereby gets two weeks notice.
You may change your land search target locations up to 1 week prior.
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Holder of non-noble titles to numerous to mention

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Havoc
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Havoc » 2013-03-10

Snudge wrote:So I also posted this to the facebook group, because let's face it people don't check the forums. However people have raised issue there so I am giving the explanation here as to why my on the field ruling was thus.

The reason this ruling was made is as follows
Page 76 covers declarations of land actions
It states that once I receive all declarations, which you must have in by the end of land events that day
I will publicly announce all encounters to the realm.

However page 72 states
At the time the land search takes place[...] At the option of the land marshal he will either select a party member to roll [....] or at a time of his chosing with a witness, roll themselves.

Page 72 also states that attackers have till 1pm to declare their final numbers to me for invasions



Page 76
Declarations
All declarations for Land Actions at the next event must be received by the Land Marshal prior to the end of Land Events at the
current event. This includes Ship Battles, Land Searches, Land Invasions, etc. Once all declarations are received and the end of Land
Events is announced, the Land Marshal will determine all encounters to occur at the next event and publicly announce all Land
Actions that will take place. This announcement will take place before the end of the day’s regular events.  

This means a minimum of two weeks notice must be provided.

At the time the Land Search takes place, the country pays the appropriate cost for the Land Search as outlined above. At the option
of the Land Marshal he will either select a party member to roll the appropriate dice on the Mines & Ruins Chart, the Land Fertility
Chart, and the Monster Encounter Chart to determine the properties of the desired hex or, at a time of their choosing with a
witness, roll themselves.

This covers the roll for the encounter not the declaration. This is also in the land search and not the invasion section. This is the step that you do during check-in, while the rule codifies it being done right before the encounter(stupid and the way it is currently run is better.

Magistrate
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Magistrate » 2013-03-11

I really wish Snudge had let me post but it seems that did not happen ... so i will now post

I am making a call as Magistrate on this matter after much thought and debate...

1. Snudge did not quite fully understand what I told him today which I can understand as he was busy with some things which happen to us all.

2. My ruling today is as follows.

a. "All declarations for land actions at the next event must be recieved by the land marshal prior to the end of land events at the current event." page 76 current published rules

I am enforcing this as written and as explained below... I am not changing any rule nor is Snudge he just didnt understand at the time.
By the end of land events you will know what happened in the current war you are in you will know if your search was a success - you will be aware if you have to address anything reguarding what you just did the event that you are currently at. You can predraft a notice to hand the land marshal or you can ask for a scrap of paper if you wish to handle it that way (which is a nightmaire to snudge) but that is our rules atm ... you can also give him written writing via the web or in a personal mail indicitating your intention. before the eventlike "we are declairing war on x the exact coordinates will be announced at the event before the close of the land events" or "we are declairing a land search the next event the coorinates will be based on what happens at the following event"

The problem here is the following:

"Hexes of land may be acquired by land search or invasion. In order for either to occur, a countries liason must provide the land marshal with a written declairation one turn in advance indicating the hex to be searched or invaded" page 71 current rulebook

what that means is that you have to provide the land marshal with not only your intention but at the same time where you are going to act ... it is near impossible to do this without knowing what the event you are at is going to happen.... you do not know all the details about where exactly you will be acting until maby 15 minutes till the end of the current events now going on ... our rules do not reflect the size and expanse of the current coutries and just how much paperwork would be floating around if we held ridgetly to this rule...

so the intention here is that you must make to the land marshal ANY ATTACKS THAT WOULD AFFECT ANY OTHER COUNTRY AT THE EVENT YOU ARE CURRENTLY AT IN WRITING TO THE LAND MARSHAL - the scouting is a lesser item (which could impact others if on same hex) but we have to try to keep to the rules and do so as written as best as possible. ---

My discussion with Snudge was that for the land marshal at the event to announce every action that event it would be near impossible and would take up a additional up to 2 hours of work for him to compile everything he has recieved and process it then take everyones time announcing it keeping everyone from fighting ...

The solution here is the following as announced today... you must declair to snudge in writing at the event before land actions end (or previously in mails or other ways your intention) by the end of the land actions that day.

The land marshal will inform all countries present at the event if they are involved in any war before the end of the day - we now have the official darkon boards so what that means is now we will set up a spot where the land marshal will AGAIN announce all wars AND ALL land actions from all countries within midnight of the following weekend in this medium ... he will by announcing all wars at the event - AND within 1 week time placing every single action on the offical boards here in a section we need to get added to the site be fulfilling the need to have all actions announced publically and in the case of wars or actions that affect others let them know at the event if they are there and or let someone know who knows them about the event that is coming up that will involve them

as magistrate per page 67 please send me a personal contact info for 2 people that will represent every country so that I can contact every country DIRECTLY after the event fulfilling the need for them to have 2 weeks notice...

"A country may have up to two designated leaders, which speaks for it to the Magistrate, and is responsible for the actions of its members."

"Each country must designate one or two persons to be liaison(s) to the land marshal"

What I as Magistrate am trying to do is to remove the issue we had reciently of actions being conducted without the country in question being notified. If the land marshal announces WARS at the end of land events and seeks out countries being wared upon at the event - and the Magistrate or a representative of the Magistrate contacts the country representives before the close of the day AND all events are posted before the following saturday at midnight by the land marshal on the official board INCLUDING THE ACTUAL HEXES OF THESE ACTIONS REGUARDLESS WHAT TYPE OF ACTION IT IS then we are covering all the bases as best we can.

As far as rolling event events that does NOT need to be posted anywhere - that can be announced at the event in question. As long as the land marshal fulfills the duty of haveing a creditable witness witness the roll at a agreed upon time and date and sign the sheets with thier real name then the rules are met.

what needs to be posted and publically announced when required at the event if it affects another country
all wars / ship battles / land searches / land invasions / ect - notice given immiately to parties affected by the action and a followup done as required if the country is not present at the event by contacting thier "official" contacts that are given to the magistrate ....THEN the exact coordinates refrenced in the offical post that the land marshal has to place before the following saturday at midnight - the land marshal is not to instruct countries what they are encountering until the day of the event when the ranger is informed of what they find UPON arriving at the site of the search. They should not get advanced notice of what to expect before they are even standing on the ground being searched... at that time skills can be obviously used by rangers to make the choice of what they encounter if they have that skill.

I hope this makes things a lil clearer....

Patrick Kelly
Magistrate 2013

any questions feel free to contact me directly

In no way does this ruling allow countries After the event is over to then announce a war or search or anything else to allow that would be a breach of the rules AND make the job of land marshal more difficult he needs the information that he has to present in the time frame by the rules.

To be clear all land events by our rules are public knowledge if anyone askes if x is doing y then it is the land marshals job to share that information to the person requesting it ... in this case we are going the added step to have a place where it will again be viewable by the game at large and give the land marshal the time to draft it and then post it in a resonable manner and a resonable time frame as a volunteer helping us all to play the game we love or hate ...

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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-11

It's kind of hard to understand your prose, pat. So I'm just going to ask a few blunt questions. We (CB) traditionally send all of our stuff via Email, and only invade other nations (war actions).

What is the deadline for Email invasion submissions?
Is there additional documentation needed (beyond the move we are making)?
Is it the Land Marshal's responsibility to inform other nations if they are being invaded?

What kind of new stuff has been cooked up that will hose me out of an invasion.

Thanks in advance,

-Murph
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Lord Cailen Sendor
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-03-11

per the rules you have to provide in writing to the land marshal the intent of attacking another country and where that attack will occur before the end of the land actions the event before the war

e mail is in writing so allowable
the deadline does not change
it is the land marshals responsibility to make your declairation public - and we are taking steps to make the other country aware asap to the end of the days land actions the event before the war

no new stuff - we will just be making this information public as it is written in the rules it should be and for a long time has not been, in the easiest way possible for the land marshal to achieve

make sense?
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Lord Cailen Sendor
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-03-11

to make it simpler you could send a e mail saying "next event we are declairing war on x we will inform you at the event the exact spot based on how the land actions go at this current event coming up.' then at the event get with the land marshal to comfirm the exact spot before the end of that days land actions... for the next events war
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Change in how land action declarations are handled

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-11

Yea, I think we're good. Our system is pretty simple and we often have our declarations far more in advance than a week.

Thanks
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