Darkon associated groups...

Discussions related to the topic of having Darkon chapters or an over-all Darkon Alliance of clubs all using the same rules or similar enough rules to allow for inter-club events, and character reciprocity.
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Lord Dubh
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Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-18

Chapters are a dead horse so I won't bring it up...(despite the objections are based on incorrect assumptions)

Anyone want to entertain the idea of having an association of groups based on the Darkon ruleset?? I have been President for 18 days and received 4 e-mails regarding starting chapters...there is interest in what we do but they can't survive without some support.

John
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Prince Andrick
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-01-18

I think that is a great idea. I still think we should have chapters, but whatever. We should all be willing to try and get our game out to as many people as possible.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-18

Why would anyone object to chapters? I mean, if it costs us no time or money and there is no legal BS...who cares?
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-18

Sir Caetrel wrote:Why would anyone object to chapters? I mean, if it costs us no time or money and there is no legal BS...who cares?


Because people think there is legal BS...and could not be convinced otherwise (There is not)

The only argument I disagreed with but could not argue against was Gary. He does not want Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. to be a central entity that can tell other clubs what to do. For example, requiring all chapters follow the rules we set.

There was also an argument that if we did this we would have to reduce the number of times we alter our rules...from what? Twice to once a year? Heartbreaking.

Then there was my argument - Have chapters that follow a core set of rules established here in Baltimore, those core rules are the armor system, weapon system, hit system and classes. They would have their own way of choosing teams, administration awards and nobility...

Reciprocity was also an issue...some here don't want to accept credits from other groups.

John
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-18

Seems simple enough to let anyone who wants to use our rules use them and make their own club.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-18

Sir Caetrel wrote:Seems simple enough to let anyone who wants to use our rules use them and make their own club.


That is already permitted.

We do not allow them to use the name DARKON in any material they generate. We do not allow them to associate with us. We also do not offer any support. We do not promote inter-club events or travel.

In the concept of an association or society of clubs: We WOULD allow them to use the trademarked name of Darkon to help promote them. We WOULD offer support and guidance. We would allow them to use the rules as they see fit. We would offer inter-club events and travel.

In the original chapter idea...all the things above were true but we also limited their ability to make SOME changes to the rules. To ensure cross-chapter events went smoothly.

At this point, all i want to see are clubs around the country with Darkon in the name using our rules. I want to have folks in our club guiding those groups to help them. I want our club to support them...

I DO want chapters. I just am not going to pursue that...
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Prince Andrick
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-01-18

Sounds great to me. If we get to the point of having more cross realm events (Like the completely awesome ORCS campout) we can set rules at that point, based on the national (ie us) rule set. We could even go so far as to state "we will be using the Jan 2012 rulebook" or whatever. Have the event scheduled for the middle of the year giving other groups time to look at the rules to be used. Let's do it.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by smelton » 2012-01-18

As the pres of ORCS for 2010-2011 I brought this issue up with our senate and EB.The main issue was the transfer of credits, or establishment of a national database, that would need to be updated after each event. The secondary issue was being able to use and change the rules as we do now.

Issue 1) We are the (I pretty sure) the biggest Darkon "chapter" there is. Our average is in the mid 40's, with our record at 73. Our highest ranking character is 28 something, I have 2 20th rank characters. One problem is our adventures are written based on the fact that we know there aren't super high ranking characters out there. It's a balance that is easy to break with an 80+ mage or other spell caster, but wouldn't matter to an 80+ fighter. Spell points do still come into play for us and most of us run out on any given adventure. As my druid, I usually ran out from mending barkskin over the course of a regular battle day because our fights are so short. The credit transfer also causes a problem because each event you go to at each club would count for a credit. So people like Corpse, when he's in America, who drive up to you guys a lot could rank up twice as fast as either club's normal members. But these are things that could be handled.

I personally don't mind coming up and "starting over". I have a 20th fighter and 20th druid here, but up there I have a 1.8 fighter and 2.8 druid. Doesn't matter to me because I come to fight. Throwing pillows will come with time in Darkon, but I'm not there often enough to make that big of a difference.

Issue 2) In the 6+ years I've been playing our games have grown apart a lot. Originally it was you guys had monks and chain doesn't take an arrow, from what I remember when I started. I've been keeping up with your rule changes so I know when I come up. More and more things have started to change between both clubs and we like the independence but like the fact that it isn't so different that it causes TOO many problems. Some always occur.

I personally agree with the new hit system you guys are working on, but I brought it the idea up down here and some people don't seem to like it.

We proposed an inter-club agreement that passed through our senate but never made it to you guys. I'll see if I can find it and post it up.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by ylinett » 2012-01-18

Hi, I actually spoke to you about this in November. I was going to make the event but didn't (sorry). I have brought up reciprocity with some of the NC and certainly with most of the EB. I am certain that we will work something out. That being said, it is our turn to come down there. I don't think we can swing a campout, but I plan on making at least an event.

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-19

Smelton,

ORCS is the closest and most active group using rules based on ours and you point out exactly one of the issues that exist under the current way of doing things. As Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. evolved we get further from those groups using our rules and thus making it harder to cross-game without special rule sets being written.

Sadly, when last discussed as a real proposal the idea of a core ruleset that all groups using our rules would follow was soundly rejected. And it really is the only way to do what Dagirhir and Amtgard do.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-19

I was going to suggest a "core ruleset" designed fore barebone play, meh. Haha glad I read your last post.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-19

Lord Valfryn wrote:I was going to suggest a "core ruleset" designed fore barebone play, meh. Haha glad I read your last post.


Why give up? It was 5 years ago and the game has changed in population significantly. I also know some who opposed the idea then would support it now.

We also already have a core ruleset. It is our armor and hit system and our classes. It is not big deal to allow local variations to classes such as not allowing some and maybe having some local ones, but the armor and hit system are VERY important when discussing the idea of having a society of clubs working together to form big events.

For example, right now ORCS and Darkon can easily come together at events and play the same basic game. There might be some tweaks in spells and such but when it comes to the fight the only change are flails. If we change our armor and hit system...then ORCS and DARKON are only related in our history and not our game play.

John
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-19

Agreed, though I am not going to let "club reciprocity" influence our senate just yet. Besides, the new hit system seems better suited for widespread play, due to its stramlined feel.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-19

Allowing:

O.R.C.S.
A Game based on the rules of The Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc.

Would seem fine to me. Allowing that second line in the titles of all these other games, would open the door for reciprocity in the future, when say, there's an online national database for characters...

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-19

You all do understand that a database is EASY. We already have the code in place, just needs to be altered a bit to allow for multiple organizations to access.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-19

Since there are only 4 Darkon campouts this year, I would love to go down to Hampton for an ORCS campout sometime this year.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-19

You sir, are a trooper!
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by smelton » 2012-01-19

We only do 2 a year right now, April 13-15 and October 12-14. Please do show up.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-19

For those who care, I did a search for CHAPTER in the Presidents e-mail box and found 11 people across the US wanting to start a chapter, all within the last 3 years.

We could already be huge if we hadn't shut the door years ago.

John
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-19

Hmm, 2 + 4 is 6!
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by AndorOfDargarth » 2012-01-19

Sir Caetrel wrote:Seems simple enough to let anyone who wants to use our rules use them and make their own club.


Honestly, this is enough for Dargarth so far. We've run for 20 months now, and we're fortunate to have good turnouts even at our winter events. It doesn't hurt to be able to talk to Bel/Amt/Dag and say 'We are based on Darkon' and to point new people to the Darkon movie. I think having Gareth and I be able to relate the culture and vision of Darkon is pretty important, as well. Also, I know I can hit up the veterans of the club, especially the few of you that offered a lot of guidance at the beginning, or the boards, if we need insight.

So, being as far away as we are, I'm not sure that we need a status of chapterhood, but I certainly wouldn't mind it, for a few non-obvious reasons:

- To have a couple of groups set up as chapters explains to new people that they *can* have a chapter. Belegarth and Dagorhir do a great job of this. (http://belegarth.com/begin.php and http://www.dagorhir.com/HowTo/getting_started.htm), right there. Their rules and structure are much simpler, sure - but that just means they have even less they have to explain.

- To encourage inter-group communication. As mentioned above, new groups need a lot of advice. It's pretty easy to get weapons tutorials and stuff, but like, my Land Marshal had a question and I was able to point him to Kobalos. IIRC this went poorly for Regnum Galacia - I don't think some of their members realized that they could get advice and ask questions, but didn't need to try to get us to pass a necromancer class for them to play with. We all read the DUMB from time to time, because you guys are where it's at.

- To demonstrate to new players a spectrum of rigid adherence to Darkon's rules: the exact rules of Darkon are huge, and they're just not going to work for everyone. It's not going to work for a group of Belegrim who want to try out Darkon but live in Idaho. I think the larger the corpus of Darkonian variants/forks are out there, the more people will get the common elements. Bel/Dag/Amt groups have secret house rules and norms, and that's fine, they know what they're up against when they travel to each other's games.

It's way easier to spread the game if it's easy to modify it. You can't build the culture or organization that Darkon has in one fell swoop, it's just too big. Belegarth's easy though, you don't even need one key person. Amtgard has very strict rules and process about it, and they have a very interesting pattern of spreading out from the motherland, which they've perfected.

The second bonus list of reasons that are more obvious but won't matter for at least a few years would be reciprocity of noble title/credits/gold/holdings. None of this will matter until there are Darkon variants in every state, so I think we should focus on the other stuff first.

Oh, I think the Dargarth, Midgard, Archaea, Regnum Glacia, and ORCS rulebooks should be published loudly (permission withstanding) on Darkon's website, this would be a great first step. If it's possible to give it some kind of copyleft license to the Darkon rules, that would be helpful too - I know I was doubtful about mashupping it with Belegarth before Inox gave me a Opinion Not Constituting Legal Advice.


Thanks,
Baron Andor of Dargarth, Lord of the Realm of Darkon
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-19

Maybe part of the problem with Darkon not doing it's best to promote and support others' is that we simply don't know how. I, for one, don't know a thing about starting a new chapter, and what would be valuable to another chapter. We have some extremely experienced veterans who know eveything there is to know about this game, but that doesn't mean much to the logistics of starting a club across the country. We also don't have the motivation because, obviously, we have an awesome club in our back yard right now.

My point...and John is probably already on this...it should be people like Andor, and Con and Effin from ORCS, who lay this interrelation out. Then we do what we can do. They know the ins and outs, trials and tribulations etc..and obviously have the energy to move things forward because they have already started their own games.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-01-20

Many moons ago, when the Darkon movie was in production I was named as Chapter Coordinator by the then president. We began a process of delineating various things that we needed to do to help get chapters started and on the move. Unfortunately, that was derailed when we decided that no we did not want chapters and that was the end of it.

I am still open to the idea of chapters and putting together a proposal in senate. But before that happens I think that we need to have a packet of " new chapter" information to present. and how the chapters would work.

My frustration with this situation was that it's hard enough to develop this information, but it's also the internal fight to even get to see this idea as valid that is draining and kills any momentum to get this in order.

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-20

Its hard to sign off on codified rules, when we are consistantly changing our own. Nothing that can't be curtailed with errata statements sent out, but I can see it as an intimidating task.

I think the idea of "core rules" is the way to go. The skeleton of Darkon. That's what we need to pimp out, and have players of different chapters use that, and our "bells and whistles" if they feel they need it.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-20

Lord Valfryn wrote:Its hard to sign off on codified rules, when we are consistantly changing our own. Nothing that can't be curtailed with errata statements sent out, but I can see it as an intimidating task.

I think the idea of "core rules" is the way to go. The skeleton of Darkon. That's what we need to pimp out, and have players of different chapters use that, and our "bells and whistles" if they feel they need it.


Yeah, the core rules of Darkon don't change often. Yes, we change classes sometimes but really only to add features, rarely to remove. Even more rare is the addition of a class. The MOST rare are changes to the armor or hit system, which as only ever happened ONCE and may occur again this year to simplify the combat.

How a club chooses Knights/Nobles, how it operates, if it uses land rules, etc...are all optional and easily dropped or added later.

When speaking to groups wanting to use our rules that is exactly what I tell them. What I would like to tell them is that they have to maintain the combat rules (armor and hits) to maintain a relationship with us and in return we would help them with credit tracking (a national database) and advertising on the DWC website as an affiliated group.

In regards to administration, insurance and organization they would be independent. With a club name that does not have Darkon in it, but with a IG name of "Realm of ????" . I would also say let them advertise they are associated with us to help them with advertising.

Reciprocity and such would come later, assuming the groups survive...and could be on a club by club basis. As an example, I would not mind full reciprocity of credits and Knights with ORCS because they are so similar.
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