Darkon associated groups...

Discussions related to the topic of having Darkon chapters or an over-all Darkon Alliance of clubs all using the same rules or similar enough rules to allow for inter-club events, and character reciprocity.
Ash_Sarum
Darkonian
Posts: 15
Joined: 2012-01-31

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Ash_Sarum » 2012-01-31

Amtgard had it's own issues in its past. It's had breakaway games and had internal strife. When I started playing Amtgard they were going through some pains. The original group has the copyright for the game and maintained contracts with all the other groups and kingdoms in Amtgard. They were the maintainers of the rules of the game and there was one person at the core group who was considered to be the cult of personality that ran the show. In the early 2000's they tried to kick one of the kingdoms out of the game and a number of the other kingdoms did not recognize the move. The game was able to come back from the brinksmanship and continue to grow but it also gave another push for an interkingdom government.

Eventually the game gets big enough and the other groups are going to want to have their say in how the game is run - revising the rules of play (character classes, magic, weapons, etc.) especially in a complex system like Darkon's, standards for knighting/nobility, how the groups interact with each other, etc.

Amtgard currently has kingdoms in many regions of the country - the kingdoms typically oversee the smaller groups in the region. Once a year they get together to vote on rules changes / clarifications at a Circle of Monarchs (CoM) meeting (the king/queen of each kingdom or their rep goes to the meeting to vote on issues). They are getting to the point where most of the prep work is done online. This is a simplistic overview of the process. The rules revision process is on pg 62 of the rulebook.

The biggest problems seemed to occur for Amtgard when there was a push to move from the central control of one kingdom to a system with representation throughout the game. I think one of the things to think about is what sort of voice do you want to give to those other groups as you grow. If the game gets big around the country other groups are going to want a want to participate in the decision making process. At some point they aren't just going to want the home group to pass along rule changes to them without any say.

That's more of a big picture issue but if the game signs contracts with other groups and makes significant growth it will surface. While the home group of Amtgard has lost some of the control they had on the game, the game as a whole is probably healthier for it.

Currently the main things the home group does: contract with new lands to allow them to use the name Amtgard, has contracts with groups that are elevated to kingdom status (their BoD reviews the potential kingdom group to make sure they've met the necessary requirements before coming up for a vote at the CoM), controls the copyright on the rules, host the CoM meeting.

Ash_Sarum
Darkonian
Posts: 15
Joined: 2012-01-31

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Ash_Sarum » 2012-01-31

Lord Dubh wrote:For those who want to take the time to see how much thought goes into starting an Amtgard Chapter, here is the contract with Amtgard, Inc.

http://www.amtgardinc.com/bldocs/KingdomContract.pdf

Notice is a very much a license agreement as much as anything else.


Just to clarify, that's the contract that groups getting elevated to Kingdom status needs to sign. All groups need to start out with this contract:
http://amtgardinc.com/bldocs/Contract2009.pdf

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-31

Ash_Sarum wrote:
Lord Dubh wrote:For those who want to take the time to see how much thought goes into starting an Amtgard Chapter, here is the contract with Amtgard, Inc.

http://www.amtgardinc.com/bldocs/KingdomContract.pdf

Notice is a very much a license agreement as much as anything else.


Just to clarify, that's the contract that groups getting elevated to Kingdom status needs to sign. All groups need to start out with this contract:
http://amtgardinc.com/bldocs/Contract2009.pdf


Yup.

I pointed out the Kingdom contract because it releases the group more than the chapter contract.

The way Darkon is organized we would not limit them the way Amtgard does, we allow them to form as we do as regional club rather than based on a single park. Our rules simply work better in larger events.

We would also have CORE rules as opposed to the entire rulebook. Some things in the rulebook are not needed for a club to function or be transferable. Land Rules are the best example...we don't NEED them and no future club needs them unless they want them...and even then they can change them. Same with how Knights are chosen..it can vary from group to group and reciprocity would be on a group by group basis. Titles like baron and earl, etc are totally not needed and would not need to transfer, etc. etc.

There is a lot of possibility here and a lot of interest nation wide.

John
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

Ash_Sarum
Darkonian
Posts: 15
Joined: 2012-01-31

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Ash_Sarum » 2012-01-31

More people hitting each other around the country / world with foam sticks is a good thing. I think it's great that you're looking at lessons learned from other systems. I'm looking forward to how this shakes out.

As much as the land rules aren't needed, I think it's one of the things that really sets the Darkon system apart providing buy-in to players/countries and a basis for politics and roleplay. It creates some overhead with managing coffers, record keeping, land actions and linking being a countries to senate representation but I don't think I've seen any other game with this sort of mechanic. In a game where you can't permanently kill off someone's character it provides a mechanism for people to risk/lose something (even if it's just an imaginary hex on a map).

User avatar
Sir Tyriel Firebrand
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 369
Joined: 2012-01-26

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-01-31

The thing that I see with that though is if they are only using our CORE rules, how is their any type of transfer as far as the stuff other than that goes? If a knight from texas darkon comes to our chapter, do we respect that? I would say yes. Especially if we have a online database, that type of stuff can be logged into that.

What about symbols and things of that nature? Would we allow them all the things that they have in their park as far as that goes.

Side note: I also agree with Ash on this one.
~No Quarter!~
~Warriors Guild~
~Knight of Tuesday~
~"Winning is teaching, losing is learning"~

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-31

The land rules, for me, is the defining trait of Darkon. That being said, I also can't imagine it being as important to a club of 10-20 players.
Image

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-31

Core rules are those things that are needed to allow movement from one group to another.

Land Rules are NOT needed to allow for easy movement from one group to another.
Knighthood is also not needed to allow for easy movement from one group to another (there are other issues with this under our CURRENT system)

Heraldry - a single site that all can use to ensure no duplication across the Realms.
Awards - A single site with all those that have earned awards.
Credits - A single database with the core classes.

The first step to anything like this is the full identification of the core rules, and then putting the rulebook together in a way to make it easy to identify them as well as fixing any other issues that may exist in them.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-31

In my Midgard files I found my original Darkon Chapter proposed contract. I moved it to Google so you can see it.

Note - It is outdated referencing rules that no longer exist and I no longer agree 100% with the way it is written. It was written in 2002, the first time Chapters came up.

http://bit.ly/y9KJmt

Here is the chapter contract for Midgard:

http://bit.ly/zD3eh0
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

seeker8212
Posts: 5
Joined: 2012-01-11

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by seeker8212 » 2012-01-31

wow! thank you guys for the plethora of information! Honestly I am a bit overwhelmed but i assume that is to be expected for a noob like me.

I have posted an ad for a darkon group in the live shade forum. What should i do next? Do you think any amtgard guys in my area would be receptive to starting a darkon group? Your experiences and advice are always very much appreciated!

Sean

Ash_Sarum
Darkonian
Posts: 15
Joined: 2012-01-31

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Ash_Sarum » 2012-01-31

I guess the big question from the contracts is whether you want to have a tiered chapter structure like Amtgard as in the 2002 Darkon Contract link (Provisional, Full, Realm chapters) or is a chapter is a chapter regardless of attendance, how long they've existed or other criteria (NPO status, insurance, etc.). Otherwise it seems likely to fall somewhere between the Dag and Amtgard contracts in general terms of use for chapters.

The tiered structure can give people an incentive to work toward the next level but adds overhead with needing to verify records and track information. Were there any benefits in any of your old paperwork for reaching the different levels?

In terms of core rules, I think the first thing is to think small. What do 10-15 people need to run the game effectively at that level?

Much of the club government stuff is in the Bylaws section (Appendix I). They probably need a basic EB but in a small group some people may have to take more than one role. They may have generic marshals (one or two people who check everybody's weapons, armor and garb) or the VP and Magistrate roles may also end up serving as marshals in a small group instead of appointing people to those positions. Do they want / need a senate until they get to a certain attendance / number of countries? I can picture them doing things by popular vote at least until they got to a certain size.

What are the core ideas - country rules (at least as fighting units if you forgo the land map), level progression, weapons, armor, hit system, classes and magic?
Even if you accept those as core, some of those like country rules could probably be subdivided into certain parts that are core and some that are optional for chapters.

The optional ideas seem to be land map, crown wars,...?
Other stuff that needs a home - relics, potions/scrolls, poison, money? - core or not?

I can see it taking some work to distill down what's set in stone and where chapters would have flexibility. Some things will be hard to tease out because of their interdependence on other rules or systems inside the game.


User avatar
Thrush Svartehjertet
Posts: 1295
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-02-01

I'll just mention this once cause it's a serious wet dream:

Crusades.

Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-03

While I feel the EB has sole authority on the administration of the club and thus chapters, the EB as a body feels the Senate should buy in on it since they rejected it 5 years ago.

So how should this be handled? What questions have to be answered? Who will answer them?

Reminder - LIABILITY is not an issue. No chapter outside of Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. would or could impact our liability.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

Ash_Sarum
Darkonian
Posts: 15
Joined: 2012-01-31

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Ash_Sarum » 2012-02-03

My 2 cents,

If you get to the point of contracting with other groups, the EB handles that process. Much as the EB handles contracts for sites and services from government and outside entities on behalf of the club. But there looks to be much work to get to that point.

I agree that if the Senate rejected the idea in the past, it should re-examine the game's desire to have other chapters.

Assuming the Senate agrees to move this forward, decide whether you want a tiered chapter system based on the size and/or age of chapters or every chapter is equal whether it's 20 people or 200 or it's been contracted for six months or 6 years.

The EB would either work amongst themselves or develop a committee to build a proposal as to the "core rules" of Darkon which the Senate should probably need to review and approve. Think about what if any say would future chapters have in updates to the core rules?

Work out the rights and responsibilities of the contracted chapters (are they required to use your online records system, do they need to send any financial, attendance, and/or other data to Darkon Inc. - if so, how often, etc.). There would need to be some work done to develop and finalize a contract for chapters. You've got a good start point with the contracts that Amtgard and Dag use.

Do you care what sort of governance chapters use? Some groups could run off of the decisions of a founder, some off elected officers, and some purely democratic systems where everyone votes on issues. Does Darkon want to give guidance or require any particulars about the way chapters govern themselves?

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-04

I have also invited the folks who want to start groups in their local area to join the forum so they can see what is being discussed. They understand we make the final determination so long as WE understand they can choose to not be part of the greater concept.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

User avatar
Defalcone
Posts: 33
Joined: 2012-01-27
Location: Missoula Montana
Contact:

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Defalcone » 2012-02-05

Lord Dubh wrote:Heraldry - a single site that all can use to ensure no duplication across the Realms.
Awards - A single site with all those that have earned awards.
Credits - A single database with the core classes.

Yes! Woot, woot, woot! Wait a minute, maybe I should introduce myself. My name is Emmett and my battle name is Defalcone. I am part of a group in Missoula Montana http://soulofthewarrior.webs.com/ that has been using Darkons Rulebook since 2007.

For a couple of years now I have been trying to get people from my group to go east and fight in a Darkon Event. The majority have little intrest in doing so beacuse of one thing, they would be treated as new players.

They would have to fight without any of the things that some have spent years in our game to earn. Now if there was a system in place that allowed our players to be recognized as an "Nth level so and so" almost the entire group would be willing to go.

User avatar
Sir Tyriel Firebrand
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 369
Joined: 2012-01-26

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-02-06

It looks like you guys pretty much have the exact same rules as us. Groups like yours are the reason I want this thing to go through and make it official. I think it would be awesome for other "Darkon" groups to come and fight here and we would all be playing the same game.
~No Quarter!~
~Warriors Guild~
~Knight of Tuesday~
~"Winning is teaching, losing is learning"~

Sir Caetrel
President
Posts: 277
Joined: 2012-01-11

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-02-06

Defalcone,

I hope sometime soon your group makes it out here for a campout as honored guests. Even if it takes us awhile to organize chapters, there is always the possibility of a game crossover event.

Cheers,

Sir Caetrel of Sarum
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm

User avatar
Defalcone
Posts: 33
Joined: 2012-01-27
Location: Missoula Montana
Contact:

Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Defalcone » 2012-02-08

Sir Caetrel wrote:Defalcone,

I hope sometime soon your group makes it out here for a campout as honored guests. Even if it takes us awhile to organize chapters, there is always the possibility of a game crossover event.

Cheers,

Sir Caetrel of Sarum


We would love nothing more than this. We are going to do our best to be recognized in some way so that one day we may cross swords, and throw spell balls at each other.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest