Darkon associated groups...

Discussions related to the topic of having Darkon chapters or an over-all Darkon Alliance of clubs all using the same rules or similar enough rules to allow for inter-club events, and character reciprocity.
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AndorOfDargarth
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by AndorOfDargarth » 2012-01-23

I'm not sold on core rules - the approach makes sense, though. I see what you are shooting for, but I don't think level parity between chapters should depend on whether the other system acknowledges AR0 or allows coreless shields or has a warrior mage or any of the other core rules, whatever they would wind up being. There is definitely some kind of way to figure out if a player deserves the levels (Title? Not as sure about) though. I have to defer to ORCS to help figure that out, I am sure they'll send over a non-Darkonian noble to visit before Dargarth does.

I'm a lot more excited about talking about what the Darkon-like realms that haven't been started will need in order to get underway. There are way too few of them and I think there'd be more if we removed some of the barriers to entry. The whole process of starting a realm is like a several-year endeavor fraught with peril, and it's more likely that new realms will be Darkonian expatriot founded, or will be established depth-seeking boffer groups, but I maintain that putting effort here is something the Darkon-associated groups of the future would benefit from.

Andor

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by jayjay » 2012-01-23

i haven't read all the stuff above, but you are dumb if you don't want darkon to spread. the BEST thing about amtgard, is i can play it from here to TX to CA to WI to even Alaska! i have taken sticks with me many times when traveling and have been able to play a game that love in many, many places.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-24

AndorOfDargarth wrote:I'm not sold on core rules - the approach makes sense, though. I see what you are shooting for, but I don't think level parity between chapters should depend on whether the other system acknowledges AR0 or allows coreless shields or has a warrior mage or any of the other core rules, whatever they would wind up being. There is definitely some kind of way to figure out if a player deserves the levels (Title? Not as sure about) though. I have to defer to ORCS to help figure that out, I am sure they'll send over a non-Darkonian noble to visit before Dargarth does.

I'm a lot more excited about talking about what the Darkon-like realms that haven't been started will need in order to get underway. There are way too few of them and I think there'd be more if we removed some of the barriers to entry. The whole process of starting a realm is like a several-year endeavor fraught with peril, and it's more likely that new realms will be Darkonian expatriot founded, or will be established depth-seeking boffer groups, but I maintain that putting effort here is something the Darkon-associated groups of the future would benefit from.

Andor


i do agree that there probably is nothing we can do for ORCS and Dargarth. They established themselves without official aid and did their own thing. But we could do something for future groups.

John
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-24

Nothing says that the "splinter groups" need to stay current. I jumped into every new edition of dnd that came out, but I know plenty of players who stayed in adnd.

We can still offer the rules to anyone, just say that if they want to call it darkon, they follow our current system. And boom, its over.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-01-26

The thing is that if we want to do this chapter thing right, other chapters have to use our rules. In Dagorhir, the individual chapters take the rulebook and take out the rules they want and such, but when national events happen, you use the core rulebook of the home chapter.

So for example, Darkon has a chapter in PA and they decide to use our rules, but take out the Warrior Mage. They can choose not to have the warrior mage at their park, but when at Inter realm events, they should expect to see warrior mages.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-01-26

The funny thing is that because there are national events and a codified ruleset, chapters tend to just stick with the basic ruleset. I frankly would not care how other chapters play in-house as long as when there are interchapter events that there is a unified ruleset to play with.

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-01-27

Yeah, which is why I don't see why is if they have our core rules, they just can't say they are darkon.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-27

Letting them call themselves Darkon is not a good idea IMO. Then when they have their annual goat raping competition, it doesn't get on CNN that Darkon rapes goats... Then the headline is "Rainbow Battle Brigade, A game based on the rules of the DWGC, Inc. raped goats". Not, "Darkon rapes goats". Savvy?

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-27

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:Letting them call themselves Darkon is not a good idea IMO. Then when they have their annual goat raping competition, it doesn't get on CNN that Darkon rapes goats... Then the headline is "Rainbow Battle Brigade, A game based on the rules of the DWGC, Inc. raped goats". Not, "Darkon rapes goats". Savvy?

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Most ridiculous argument EVER.

And I say this as the guy trying to protect the clubs name by getting these forums up.

I should also point out, no one has said the groups would call themselves Darkon. In fact since you have been around you should be aware that no one has EVER said they would call themselves Darkon. Darkon is the name our our club and realm and it would be way confusing.

Groups would have their own club and realm name, like Galacia did.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-27

That's all I was saying...

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-01-27

Ok, so basically we would be the home chapter and the others would just have different names other than Darkon, but they would follow all our rules and such, and we allow them house rules at their own parks.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by seeker8212 » 2012-01-29

Evening, everyone! I would just like to let everyone know that I would like to form a DARKON chapter in Texas. Has anyone else from Texas proposed forming a chapter, or am I the only one?

Thanks!
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by seeker8212 » 2012-01-29

also if were to form a darkon chapter in Texas, I would only be associated with it if we followed all of the rules of DARKON. Please let me know if this sounds like a good idea as I am new to all of this. I apologize for my naivety regarding this matter..

Sean

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-29

We had one in San Antonio...

Will reply with more later.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-30

seeker8212 wrote:also if were to form a darkon chapter in Texas, I would only be associated with it if we followed all of the rules of DARKON. Please let me know if this sounds like a good idea as I am new to all of this. I apologize for my naivety regarding this matter..

Sean


You should download the rule book, play the * out of it, and enjoy. Just wait to ad the word "Darkon" to anything you do until this has passed. Good luck, and have a blast! These are great rules we are hammering out right now!

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-30

Lord Dubh wrote:Chapters are a dead horse so I won't bring it up...(despite the objections are based on incorrect assumptions)

Anyone want to entertain the idea of having an association of groups based on the Darkon ruleset?? I have been President for 18 days and received 4 e-mails regarding starting chapters...there is interest in what we do but they can't survive without some support.

John


Can we discuss an online credit/character database for ALL of these potential games to use? As long as you play a class that the "home chapter" in Baltimore/MD/NoVa uses, you can travel as your character and credits count. It seems logical to me. Whoever the elected secretary of each "chapter" is, would be the only current person with log in rights... I do not code or do anything like it, so I don't know how hard this would be... But if we're all gonna play with each other (giggity) shouldn't we be able to travel as ourselves?

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-30

Just a lil story to keep in mind and use to model the idea... I support darkon groups across the US we just need to find the best way to do it ... it will only allow our sport to grow and people to travel to see and fight in different areas which is a HUGE bonus...

By David W. Graham (AKA Seldon Stilicho Animus Lioninus)
Author of Battle Gaming: The New American Sport
©2012 David W. Graham

I drafted this material in 2007 as part of the history of battle gaming for my book “Battle Gaming: The New American Sport.” I removed this topic from the book because it seemed to have too much detail about a political fight that most new players would not care about. The finial history that I did publish in the book is more of a global overview of the entire sport.

In October of 2011, Richard Hicks created a facebook group called “Dagorhir and Belegarth reunification league.” Richard who is a senior in high school had no idea what he is getting into when he created this group. It is for him and all the other players who have come after 2002 that I have decided to post this article on the internet.

In 2001 the confederacy model for all of the Dagorhir clubs blew up. There was a rift so deep that the organization split into two almost equal halves. It is a story that involves weapons, money, egos, and lawyers.

The formation of Belegarth was forged in the culture differences of the chapters formed outside of Washington D.C. back in the early 1980’s. It was then fueled by the rapid growth of Dagorhir and the lure of fame and fortune that might bring.

During the early 1980’s Dagorhir began to spread into the Midwest. One of the new clubs formed outside of Cleveland Ohio in 1981 by Falcon, a former player from the Washington, D.C. area. A second was established by Jeff Hutton in Danville Illinois. Jeff had watched the nationally televised Dagorhir presentation of it on the national syndication of P.M. Magazine. Jeff had written to Brian Wiese and received a copy of the Dagorhir handbook.

These two new groups shared the same game play as Dagorhir but not the same culture. Brian had always enjoyed the dark ages, a time of tribal warfare with bands of warriors roaming the lands. The original group in D.C. embodied that energy. Both the new groups instead took a much more high medieval approach. The Ohio group established itself as a Kingdom with a court. The Illinois group established itself with a class of knights and a knight’s council to run the group. This cultural difference would never be bridged and would be one of the seeds that would bring about a great conflict in 2001.

To understand the events leading up to the breakup of Dagorhir, I must set the stage. In 1994 Gregg Larson a very long time member of the Middle Earth Dagorhir group started making weapons and selling them to friends. He is a research scientist and works on a variety of projects for the Department of Defense in a University setting. No he is not one of those top secret scientists. His specialty is road surfaces.

Gregg started applying his engineering knowledge to sword building. He also had a knack as an entrepreneur, sufficient capital, and a suitable property to start a real weapon making business. Thus was born Edhellen Armory. I know at that time he had quite a lot of debt. Edhellen was not making money and would likely not make a profit for some time. He is a big fan of battle gaming and saw it his mission in life to grow Dagorhir. The best way he saw for doing that was to create easily obtainable sports equipment (weapons) for the new players.

At the same time, Dave Vierling, a very long time member of Dagorhir Aratari, had established the same goal. Dave Vierling had been talking with some toy manufactures about producing a line of in store Dagorhir branded weapons. I believe that Dave had the best of intensions for growth of the battle gaming sport. I believe he saw the proceeds funneled back into the organization to fuel marketing and growth. The only problem was that there was no global organization to license name Dagorhir.

Dagorhir was rapidly filling up with long time members of 20+ years of experience. Many of these players started as teens and were now dropping into middle age. They had families, homes, jobs, and responsibility. They also had the most experience and were therefore running the various clubs around the country. Liability was becoming a big concern.

The Dagorhir game was showing strong growth. With the rules and handbook freely available on the Internet, new little “Dagorhir” groups were popping up all over the country. The questions that were on everybody’s mind was: "If someone playing in Rawlings Wyoming, and they are using the Dagorhir name, are they following the safety guidelines? If not, and a person gets hurt, are we all going to get sued?"

At Ragnarok, June 4th and 11th, 2000 a council representing the confederation of Dagorhir clubs voted unanimously to approve a committee to research whether Dagorhir might acquire benefits by incorporating nationally. They were to bring back their results to the next council meeting at the 2001 Ragnarok Event in one year.

At this point the concept of an incorporated entity was in all the stake holders’ best interest. At the time, Dave Vierling and Sean Richey were running the Dagorhir Battle Gaming Association, Inc. If the committee concluded that incorporation was in the best interest of Dagorhir, I can only assume that Dave and Sean expected their corporation to be the natural entity.

There had always been that culture difference between the Aratari and the Midwest groups. It fostered a certain level of distrust. I know it played into the events as they unfolded.

Things fell apart in February of 2001. It appeared that the committee was going to return with a recommendation to incorporate. It also appeared that they were leaning towards using an existing corporation, Dagorhir Improvisational Battlegame, Inc of Ohio. This made sense, as it was the oldest Dagorhir corporation on record.

Dagorhir Improvisational Battlegame, Inc was the creation of Pentwyvern the second major group of Dagorhir (1981). They did not incorporate until 1990, but that was still five years before I had filed the Dagorhir Battle Game Association, Inc in Maryland. It looked like this would become the Non-Profit for Dagorhir.

This came as a shock to Dave and Sean who seemed to have an agenda to sit atop the Dagorhir pyramid. By this time the toy deal had not materialized, yet there was still the vision. They put forth the argument that it should be the Dagorhir Battle Game Association, Inc of Maryland that should be the parent group for all of Dagorhir.

Many of those outside the Aratari saw this as a power grab by the founding group. For someone like Gregg Larson, who was on the committee, this was a threat to the entire process. Dagorhir needed to be strong if Edhellen Armory was going to be strong.

In order to mitigate the destabilizing influence of the Aratari and to court the support of all the other Dagorhir chapters, Gregg set out to write a charter that would create a strong parent entity for Dagorhir. This entity would not be based in Maryland. Dave and Sean felt they were shut out from this process.

To take control of the situation Dave Vierling set about a process to wrest control from the committee. He hired The Law Office of Lawrence D. Adashek to file for a trademark on the Dagorhir name. He ran into one problem though, Dagorhir Battle Game Association, Inc had fallen into forfeiture back in 1997 because they had failed to file the required corporate reporting to the state of Maryland. The corporation was my baby but by then I had left Maryland and now was an active Amtgard player in Colorado. He quickly fixed the problem in April. In May a trademark application for the name Dagohir was filed on behalf of the non-profit.

During this time of my life I had been ignoring Dagohir. My son was born in 1998 and my daughter just that January. I was spending more time with the family.

I got dragged into the entire controversy as I keep receiving email appeals from both sides of the conflict. I decided to try to broker a peace agreement and I made several phone calls to Brian Wiese and Dave Vierling.

Brian was livid about the trademark of the Dagorhir name. He felt that Dave had no right. Yet he stood with Dave’s assertion that it was better the Aratari then some other group.

Dave basically told me it was too late for a compromise. The flame wars had basically escalated to such a level that there was no turning back.

Dave then instigated a Chapter contract model almost identical to the one found in Amtgard. This is the same model that contributed to High Fantasy Society breaking from Amtgard in 1990. As soon as he did this things really went out of control. All of a sudden all the groups that had been Dagorhir for as many as 20 years needed to file a contract with the Dagorhir Battle Game Association, Inc. if they wished to continue to use the Dagorhir name.

The flame wars on the Dagorhir online forum were burning away any hope to recruit and retain new members to the club. To counter act that, Sean quickly clamped down the system with what one might say Roman efficiency. Many logins were shut down and it was difficult to have any discussion about the topic.

To counter act the shutdown, Gregg lead a rebellion on the internet setting up www.dagorhir.info and www.dagorhirubb.com. The latter being a Forum with no restrictions.

Eventually Gregg was served with a Cease and Desist order from The Law Office of Lawrence D. Adashek telling him that he had until December 7, 2001 to shutdown all the sites and remove all Dagorhir material or he would face a lawsuit. Gregg complied and launched a new organization known as Belegarth.

I still feel a bit guilty about the breakup and my contribution to it. In 1994 when I created the Dagorhir Battle Game Association, I had the choice of making the non-profit a “membership” organization or a “non-member” organization. I chose “non-member” because it seemed easer. In its “non-member” configuration, new members to the Board of Directors are added by existing board members.

Now if I had chosen to go with“member” things would have been different. For the organization would have defined what is a member, as well as established and maintained a roster of members. The members would have had the right to select and remove people from the Board of Directors. I can only speculate how this injection of democracy would have affected the 2001 conflict.

Today Dagorhir and Belegarth are separate organizations. They have two different political philosophies. I expect them to continue as two separate entities with a lot of crossover players.

Last Updated (Monday, 30 January 2012 16:40)
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-30

Let me be frank here.

Dagirhir and Belegarth are NOT the models by which we would follow.

The best example to follow is in fact Amtgard. They have contracts among the chapters to detail what is ok and what is not, and who is responsible for what. They answer all the questions up front before any chapters can start. Making any legal issues moot.
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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-01-30

^This. There is no reason we can't have an online database that other chapters can use. Amtgard has the O.R.K (Online Record Keeping) system and it works. This could make our game better and grow it alot. Wouldn't it be nice if a bunch of us could go to another chapter and invade, or vice versa.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-31

John is on point here. The main reason the Dag/ Bel split turned out the way it did is because they did not have a defined model with proper contracts in place. All the bad things that could have went down, did go down, because there was no groundwork. Amtgard had the foresight and precaution to do this early on. Their model is sound.

Ironically, the more years we spend waffling on the fence, the higher we run the risk of repeating Dag's mistakes.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-31

agreed lets get this ball a rollin!
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-31

Just don't ever let one or 2 people think they have control and rights over EVERYTHING. That's the key. Learn from the mistakes of others. Remember, the internet happened during this whole Dagorhir mess... The arguments spanned pre-internet to modern times... And that actually had effects on the outcome of things. But yeah, chapters and online databases would be dope, as long as our game in MD can't be hurt by the actions of others.

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-31

For those who want to take the time to see how much thought goes into starting an Amtgard Chapter, here is the contract with Amtgard, Inc.

http://www.amtgardinc.com/bldocs/KingdomContract.pdf

Notice is a very much a license agreement as much as anything else.
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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-31

Warriors Guild
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Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
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"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

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Re: Darkon associated groups...

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-31

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:And here's Dag's:

http://www.dagorhir.com/HowTo/getting_s ... %20CHAPTER

Thrush
berserk


Wow...is more a "Here is how you do it" isn't it.

Here is the actual contract.

http://www.dagorhir.com/dagorhir/DagChapterContract.pdf

I have to admit it looks like they learned something from the split, the contract is better than what there was years ago when I was looking into this stuff.
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