The Rogue 2.0

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.

See below

1. Solution 1- Playtest
3
27%
2. Solution 2- 8th rank Scroll Cap
5
45%
3. Solution 3- Keep Thieves as is, redo Assassin class
3
27%
 
Total votes: 11

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fingers630
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The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-16

So after passing Senate, the Rogue Proposal was veto'd by the BOD, 4 Nays and Tyriel's yay ;)

It went back to senate in the cluster F that was the clown war II, and did not overturn BoD losing 11-6 (needing 13 I think to overturn).


After a few minutes of silence when asked what their issues with the proposal was, the Secretary stated her issues with the class. Mainly the use of scrolls. Examples given were:

Rogues would be able to magic stone entangle someone, assassinate them, then prayer touch last rite that person, and then gaseous form away.

While this is true, you would need to acquire 5 scrolls to do so, something that is apparently quite easy to do, despite myself and Inox and Snudge mentioning how difficult/expensive this would be for the common Rogue.

The only other issue mentioned was that thieves were an over powered class and gain too much due to the Rogue Proposal.

I have offered 2 solutions:

1. First senate meeting of 2014, present the submission as it was passed by 2013 senate and request a 6 month (til 6.30.14) Playtesting of the Rogue Class. Wherein all characters would continue to check in as Assassin, or Thief, but gain the Rogue skills of the checked in class' level.

For example, I Fingers check in as my Thief, and play a level 10 Rogue for the day.

The purpose of this is to see whether or not the Board (and Blackwatch who seemed the only vocal people opposed to the proposal)'s fears were justified, or simply unfounded.

2. The second issue directly addresses the EB/Blackwatch's concerns directly, in the fact that scroll use by the Rogue class be limited to rank 8 spells. This eliminates Magic Stone and Pouch from the class list directly, and while an assassin could prayer touch a last rites spell, they would still have to take the time to don the gloves and acquire the spells to do so. Something that can easily be accomplished currently by simply brining a SECOND person with them.

Unfortunately, this version of the submission was deemed unacceptable by Nurgle and we would lose their support.

I also have a third solution, we leave the classes separate, though personally I find it silly to do so, and I write up a proposal to change the assassin class all together. Giving them some additional abilities like opening locks and making all poisons, limiting assassination to 6 hours due to the absurdity of 24hr current assassination, etc.

What would people prefer?
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-16

I am torn to which of the two I would vote for. My two choices would be to limit the scrolls used to 8th rank, or two redo the assassin class altogether. I would not go for a playtest, as I know of some people who would try their damndest to troll everyone with the class.

I think it is silly to have two classes that are so similar be two separate things. However if some dislike it so much, maybe they could help fix it. Adding more Thief skills to Assassin could have the potential to make the class more appealing then the Thief class. I think that an Assassin would be able to pick pockets, open locks, and detect traps. That makes sense to me, but I think that all of those are not in the assassin class.

I am currently torn, I would be willing to help with it though.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-16

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I am torn to which of the two I would vote for. My two choices would be to limit the scrolls used to 8th rank, or two redo the assassin class altogether. I would not go for a playtest, as I know of some people who would try their damndest to troll everyone with the class.

I think it is silly to have two classes that are so similar be two separate things. However if some dislike it so much, maybe they could help fix it. Adding more Thief skills to Assassin could have the potential to make the class more appealing then the Thief class. I think that an Assassin would be able to pick pockets, open locks, and detect traps. That makes sense to me, but I think that all of those are not in the assassin class.

I am currently torn, I would be willing to help with it though.



Exactly what I was thinking. It is pointless to me to have 2 of the exact same thing, one can assassinate, and the other can read scrolls, but whatever people prefer. I have no issue with the lvl 8 scroll cap and Inox and I thought it was a good compromise. Thieves lose power from their current rules, no magic stone, no steel skin, no pouch, no last rites UNLESS you can convince a cavalier to make you a scroll!
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Snudge » 2013-12-16

Nurgle is hard against the drop to level 8, that removes 11 spells from what is currently allowed. It would be the most incredible nerf that is utterly unnecessary.

I firmly believe that many of the concerns voiced are unfounded. I agree that the 24 window is just to much, it can ruin a campout for someone and that needs to be changed. But Tyriel, your assertion that people are going to intentionally troll with the rogue class is just ridiculous. Where are they going to get the scrolls needed? Where are they going to get the writs needed? You only get one for being the class and that you've got to get signed by an event elder or the magistrate. So its not like you can just randomly bust out a personal on someone for the hell of it because you want to be a troll or a griefer.

I've played a thief almost exclusively since I joined darkon, I have a better feel for this than most and will be happy to sit down and discuss any concerns anyone might have about the new class. It really will help the game in a variety of ways related to roleplay and eliminate rather than increase the potential for assassination to be abused.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-17

Im just saying I have heard people say "OMG PLEASE LET THIS PASS, I WILL TROLL THE * OUT OF ALL OF YOU TO SHOW YOU HOW BROKEN IT IS TROLOLOLOLOL.

I think that it would be hard to get all of those things needed and be in the right place at the right time and actually pull a hit off. You would have to be a highly skilled assassin to do such a thing as well. Apparently everyone and their mom has a dump truck full of scrolls somewhere that no one ever uses.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-17

Im also for proposing an expiration date for scrolls/potions...
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-12-17

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:Im just saying I have heard people say "OMG PLEASE LET THIS PASS, I WILL TROLL THE * OUT OF ALL OF YOU TO SHOW YOU HOW BROKEN IT IS TROLOLOLOLOL.

I think that it would be hard to get all of those things needed and be in the right place at the right time and actually pull a hit off. You would have to be a highly skilled assassin to do such a thing as well. Apparently everyone and their mom has a dump truck full of scrolls somewhere that no one ever uses.


That there are people anywhere eagerly waiting to grief others by way of a combined thief/assassin class speaks volumes.

As to the inventory of potions/scrolls some characters or countries have; who knows? But I would look at the factors that could determine such a figure... the number of characters who can make such items, how long they have been able to, the number of adventure days where they could, the general uselessness of coin beyond bankrolling such items, and the availability of scrolls and potions for purchase from NPCs. I'd also have to consider how easy it would be to cheese such items.

Consider... Senate just changed Maelstrom to remove it's icestorm abilities. How will the realm react to the sudden increase in population of those with an ability; not to freeze you for five minutes, but to remove your character from play for six hours? Or, by the same token, giving assassins the ability to cast icestorm (and fireball) rather than needing Maelstrom to do so?

So I have to question; is this change going to be 'fun' for Darkon as a whole? With the perspective of current trends; I would say 'no'.

I would rather see a revamp of the Assassin class limiting the length of time a given character is removed from play and how often a character can be so removed... perhaps even removing 'guildmaster' rules and/or the class all together. Unlikely and extreme, I know.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-17

It is unlikely that assassination will ever go below 6 hours. My proposal allowed for 2/4/6 and apparently 6 was chosen by a good margin.

That there are people anywhere eagerly waiting to grief others by way of a combined thief/assassin class speaks volumes.


Yes, it speaks as to the shady intentions of people at Darkon. For people to claim as such makes them nothing more than petty dick heads who are out to ruin peoples fun. Personally, I think they should be named, so people of the Realm can see what an * they truly are that they would make such a statement. Maybe where a scarlet A on their tunic.

There exist mechanics in the current game of Darkon, to legally grief players but you know why people don't use them? Cause they aren't *.

Don't believe me? Animate Dead doesn't have anything indicating what happens after 30 min. So I animate you, have you go stand in the woods, and come back in 30min to do it again. Entangle? *, Illsee you in 15 min so I can do it again. Curse? No duration. how about I curse you out in the middle of no where, and see you next event?
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Snudge » 2013-12-17

I can speak on the stockpile area as the head of the thieves guild. I have amassed a large, if not the largest collection of potions, poisons and scrolls. Scrolls are absolutely the hardest thing to get, and will probably always be so. They require much more effort on the part of casters as they have to scribe the entire spell onto paper. Darkon is lazy and potions require nothing more than giving gold to the marshal.


Tyriel I challenge you to name names, because I haven't hard anyone saying they are going to troll people. By your statement alone you are shaping the concerns of aethilgar who directly quoted you in regards to griefing. Aethilgar come talk to me, I think I can assure you this won't be abused
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-12-17

Sir Aethilgar wrote:
Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:Im just saying I have heard people say "OMG PLEASE LET THIS PASS, I WILL TROLL THE * OUT OF ALL OF YOU TO SHOW YOU HOW BROKEN IT IS TROLOLOLOLOL.


That there are people anywhere eagerly waiting to grief others by way of a combined thief/assassin class speaks volumes.

I don't think there really are that many people. It's more of a thing that when Darkon passes a rule that some people find suspect, some of those people are going to try their hardest to make a show of why they thought it was broken to begin with by abusing it completely. It's basically a game of extremes. It'd be like somebody playing a mage and casting nothing but fireball all day long at the same person just so that person will say "FIREBALL NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME".

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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-12-17

-I am going to weigh in on this, although I am sure to regret it.

-In my opinion, assassination is the single most powerful ability in the game, and really doesn't fit in with the other abilities of the game. It's the only ability in the game that can seriously destroy a player's fun for an entire event. People create costumes and personas to come play as their chosen character in their chosen play-style, and an assassination can take that all away from them. It is a very powerful ability.

-My main issue with the Rogue class is putting the use of scrolls into the hands of assassins. This puts every spell in the game into the toolbox of the assassin. (Hold Person, Entangle, Nature Love, FeebleMind, Last Rites, Icestorm.... to name but a few). Adding in Magic stone, Prayer touch , and Pouch only makes it worse. A class with an ability as powerful as assassination doesn't need more tools to accomplish it. At least now, a last rites/ prayer touch assassination takes more than one person which creates a bit of a scene and provides multiple parties that might be questioned later. The Rogue class provides an all in one death dealer that can do it all by themselves. There are multiple other spell combinations that could be used to maximum effect, but I don't need to go over them all. My point is that being able to cast spells (and all of them at that) to help with assassinations is too much.

-To those that say scrolls aren't out there, or they're hard to make... I will make two points. On a basic pre-adventure day, Blackwatch could make 6-10 high level cleric scrolls at a cost of 1 spellpoint a level and 1 silver piece a level. We could make 3-6 high level mage scrolls and an assortment of similar druid spells. If we went for stuff like Hold Person it would be far more. We could do the same for the campout that follows. I only use our country numbers because I know those, other countries out there can do the exact same thing. You don't have to find Firemares and storm the Black Fortress of Krull to get scrolls. They're relatively easy to make on any pre-adventure, and then you get another go at a campout. My secondary point is that scrolls aren't incredibly useful at present. Their effect is instant and generally not worth the effort. Make them a tool that an assassin can use to accomplish his goal, and they're going to become more prevalent in the realm. People who own a printer can buy some scroll paper and find the Cursive font easily enough. I find it difficult to believe that people RP professional killers who know that there may be huge consequences for their countries if caught, won't put out the minimal effort to acquire these items.

-The assassination ability has been abused in the past. Entire countries and players have been repeatedly assassinated. This isn't a hypothetical. I have concerns about what will happen if these tools are placed into the toolkit of an assassin. The most powerful ability in the game shouldn't be coupled with access to every spell in the game. There are players talking about everything that could be done with this combination because they're afraid of the effect it would have on the game. If there's one thing Darkon should know by now, once a class has a new ability.... good luck getting rid of it.

-So there's my 2 cents on the matter.

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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-12-17

-As for the change from 24 to 6 hours, while a good idea, I just don't see it as the big sacrifice it's being labeled as. Perhaps in a world where Darkon ran campouts that started Friday night, lasted all night and ended around 1 am on Sunday. In reality, most campouts start after check in on Saturday and are wrapping up by 8pm for pit fights. So maybe if someone got an assassination leaving check-in it might make a difference, but I don't think that's the reality of things.

-I could see this class working with the change to 2 hours. Would it really be a bad thing if people were only restricted from playing their chosen playstyle for 2 hours?

-Again, just my opinions on the subject.

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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Inox » 2013-12-17

fingers630 wrote: no last rites UNLESS you can convince a cavalier to make you a scroll!


Cavaliers can never make scrolls.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Inox » 2013-12-17

fingers630 wrote:It is unlikely that assassination will ever go below 6 hours. My proposal allowed for 2/4/6 and apparently 6 was chosen by a good margin.

That there are people anywhere eagerly waiting to grief others by way of a combined thief/assassin class speaks volumes.


Yes, it speaks as to the shady intentions of people at Darkon. For people to claim as such makes them nothing more than petty dick heads who are out to ruin peoples fun. Personally, I think they should be named, so people of the Realm can see what an * they truly are that they would make such a statement. Maybe where a scarlet A on their tunic.

There exist mechanics in the current game of Darkon, to legally grief players but you know why people don't use them? Cause they aren't *.

Don't believe me? Animate Dead doesn't have anything indicating what happens after 30 min. So I animate you, have you go stand in the woods, and come back in 30min to do it again. Entangle? *, Illsee you in 15 min so I can do it again. Curse? No duration. how about I curse you out in the middle of no where, and see you next event?


Yeah, Fingers makes an excellent point. There are a LOT of things that you could use to grief a player.

When we find especially annoying, unforeseen griefer mechanics, or things with unintended, unbalancing synergies, we change them. What we should not do is back away from creativity & variety because of worry over these things.

Example: A few years ago, Clerics & Assassins were working together to Resurrect foes that fell in combat, and then to immediately Assassinate them when they were already effectively captured. Fish in a barrel, and a terrible griefer mechanic with minimal RP justification.

Solution: Characters can choose whether or not to Resurrect. Easy. Res-Assassinations are a thing of the past.

Scrolls are really a very, very minor part of Darkon. They can't be used at normal events, nor in land wars. They basically only ever see use for Land Searches & Adventures/Campouts. They are difficult to use at the best of times (interruption = lost scroll, death/Dispel with spell pouched = all wasted) and they are not super commonplace. Plus, they can be looted. Thief Pouch ain't big enough to hold much in the way of scrolls, either.

The power level of Rogue is so damned low. What can they do at a normal battle event? Loot, Backstab, and Climb Walls. Not exactly a powerhouse. For that they end up in AC 2, with 24" shields, & only shorter, non-chained weapons.

If the adventure-only ability of Assassinate worries you, then that's the elephant in the living room. Address that. But having two separate classes for subtle variants of the same basic archetype is incredibly silly.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-18

Yep. Assassination is the issue. Problem is you have 1 side that will vote any nerf to it down just because. You have the other side that will vote anything that buffs a class with assassinate down just because.

Neither side will budge, and thats the issue. No one side is happy only seeing the negative. Im just going to work on fixing assassins with Snudge as I dont see anyone compromising to form the Rogue class. We will just have 2 identitical classes...with a minor difference like people apparently want.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Inox » 2013-12-18

I think the Rogue might be worth one more shot with the next BoD. Just sayin'.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-12-18

exoduscleric wrote:-I am going to weigh in on this, although I am sure to regret it.

-In my opinion, assassination is the single most powerful ability in the game, and really doesn't fit in with the other abilities of the game. It's the only ability in the game that can seriously destroy a player's fun for an entire event. People create costumes and personas to come play as their chosen character in their chosen play-style, and an assassination can take that all away from them. It is a very powerful ability.


I agree with you and would add that fully equipping multiple classes to a high standard can get fairly expensive. I have to admit that I wouldn't shed a tear if the ability to assassinate left the game... particularly in light of how much concern has been placed recently on 'fireball' and hold-type abilities (like Maelstrom). I'd much rather be 'held' by an icestorm for 5 min or blown up by a fireball AoE than have the ability to play what I want to play taken away from me; in effect, for the entire day.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Vekin Wyvrenkin » 2013-12-19

My opinion on people's fear of assassination:

If you are afraid of an assassination ruining your campout, then treat Darkon Wargaming club like a Wargame and actually take precautions against assassination. I think the added effort of guarding against enemy intruders hoping to take out valuable targets adds a crucial amount of realism, suspense, and effort that adds to the excitement of campouts. If you don't want someone crawling into your camp and assassinating you, maybe you should consider a strategy to prevent it, like a guard duty, sorta like what actual military establishments do. If you are worried about being hit while outside your camp, take precautions.

I may be the only person all of the realm to think this, but I would like to see assassination with even more sever consequences.

Thats my two cents.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-19

Severe consequences to whom? The person killed? Sorry but you are probably the only person in the world who thinks it.

Speaking as a former guild master in an offshoot of this game, in a country full of thieves and assassins, if you pissed us off, you might as well pack it up come campout time. We had you on lockdown. We were not the best armored, best fighters, or by far the highest levels in the game, but we would catch you, alone or in small groups, at some point, and you would die. And once you died, and came back as a fighter, we killed your high level rezzing cleric friends, and your mages, until you were all fighters. Sometimes people brought some spare fighter gear, but often they fought with no armor for the rest of the event. Because 24 hours and 1 minute later, we were ready to gak you again.

You can count on 1 hand the number of people that come out to Darkon and want to play something other than what they checked in as. There is 1 class that has the ability to modify someone's entire weekend. If I don't like getting fireballed, I will avoid drawing the attention of a mage. If an assassin wants me dead, there isn't much I can do about it. A good assassin anyway.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-19

I have come up with an assassin re-write and am passing it around to see what people's thoughts are. I think we need to separate the Thief from the Assassin, and give you a reason other than assassinate to play an Assassin over a thief. I did this by concentrating on the fact that an assassin is a hired killer, and should be trained in many combat/weapon styles, unlocking additional weapons at higher levels. If anyone is interested, Ill gladly send you what I have for review.

Im interested to hear what Assassins want, in exchange for lowering the downtime for assassination. Even 6 hours is too high as it is a complete adventure day.
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-12-19

Perhaps we should make consequences for assassinations. As in, actually codify some rules on trials and executions. Then being an assassin that can kill for 24 hours at least puts you at greater danger yourself.

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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-19

I believe currently you may be tried by a Noble and judged, if you are found guilty then you are assassinated for 24 hours. Of course then its just who you know, as wasn't there an assassin who was found innocent despite the overwhelming evidence by a former King?
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-12-19

fingers630 wrote:Severe consequences to whom? The person killed? Sorry but you are probably the only person in the world who thinks it.

Speaking as a former guild master in an offshoot of this game, in a country full of thieves and assassins, if you * us off, you might as well pack it up come campout time. We had you on lockdown. We were not the best armored, best fighters, or by far the highest levels in the game, but we would catch you, alone or in small groups, at some point, and you would die. And once you died, and came back as a fighter, we killed your high level rezzing cleric friends, and your mages, until you were all fighters. Sometimes people brought some spare fighter gear, but often they fought with no armor for the rest of the event. Because 24 hours and 1 minute later, we were ready to gak you again.

You can count on 1 hand the number of people that come out to Darkon and want to play something other than what they checked in as. There is 1 class that has the ability to modify someone's entire weekend. If I don't like getting fireballed, I will avoid drawing the attention of a mage. If an assassin wants me dead, there isn't much I can do about it. A good assassin anyway.


This.

Vekin, it is all well and good to role play, post guards, and the like. Heck, I was once at a camp out where my guards wouldn't let me out of my tent because there was a credible threat of my assassination.

But is it fun? Is that how people want to spend their time? Me being overly guarded to the point of near imprisonment? Or the guards for staying in camp to keep watch over me? Or those that didn't carouse after the sun went down to drink with their buds but stayed armored up 'just in case'?

Many times I will look at a rules under the microscope of 'fun'. Will this enhance the fun of the game for the majority of players? If the answer is 'no'; then we should avoid it. Heck, there have been players who have leveled up multiple characters of the same class just to ensure that they can play the class they want to! That doesn't sound like people having 'fun' to me.

That all said, Fingers, I'd love to read your assassin draft.
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Snudge
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Snudge » 2013-12-19

I disagree a bit with you about fun vs rules aethilgar. This is a wargame and war isn't always supposed to be fun. For a point of argument let's assume Nurgle declares war on minathlon, we proceed to take everything you own and sack your castle. You then must fight an unending stream of siege fights to reclaim your capital castle before you can earn income to do anything else. As the losing side I do not image that would be fun to have to deal with. But the rules do allow for this to happen. I believe there must be a balance between fun, war and rp intrigue. What's fun for one person isn't always fun for another. Some days there are winners and some days there are losers, and who is who tends to change event to event or the very least season to season.

What if the duration was further modified on the original proposal? Two hours for day events, six for campouts. With the added rule that you can only be assassinated once in a 24 hour window. That reduces the ability to harm the fun of other players by allowing them to only get a temporary time out instead of a 24 hour sit down.

~Edit~
Also some of the people who have two casters, have two casters so they can assassinate one when it runs out of spell points and just bring in another with a full compliment.
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Kobalos
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Re: The Rogue 2.0

Post by Kobalos » 2013-12-19

I like the "6 hour assassination, but only once in a 24-hour period" idea. Prevents griefing.

Don't get me started on multiple casters, or any other class for that matter. Fighting cheese with cheese makes us all, um, curdy.
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