A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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fingers630
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-24

Oh Ive disrupted people, I just don't pose a threat to anyone I guess ;)
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Vekin Wyvrenkin » 2013-12-27

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-12-27

I cannot cosign with the removal of AoE, as I've stated before. Sorry.

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-12-27

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-28

Yep I dont support AoE removal or the steelskin change sorry.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-12-28

Yeah, the steel skin change coupled with the fancy new "multi ball" spells only makes it so you can one shot a mage (in melee and out of melee) even if you stack a pro fire on that. Someone could have fully charged bracers, arcane armor, and pro fire, using up 6 sp just to get taken down by a single shot? Im not seeing how that's fun for anyone but the archer.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-12-28

As others have stated, I feel that archers (and missile weapons) will eat through casters with a multi-ball spell held. They won't be able to get rid of them fast enough to not get hit, or have to move (and end up getting disrupted).

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2013-12-30

mardux zulammar wrote:Yeah, the steel skin change coupled with the fancy new "multi ball" spells only makes it so you can one shot a mage (in melee and out of melee) even if you stack a pro fire on that. Someone could have fully charged bracers, arcane armor, and pro fire, using up 6 sp just to get taken down by a single shot? Im not seeing how that's fun for anyone but the archer.


I disagree with this fear of being "one shot". half the classes in the game which should be more combat oriented have the potential to be "one shot" while this fear is under specific circumstances mages could be "one shot". Druids, thieves, assassins and warrior mages (sans missile weapons) all can be "one shot" while wearing the best armor possible, other classes besides monks only when they are wearing heavy armor that restricts their movement. (Chain + ). But it's cool, mages can use red weapons, (most damaging weapon in the game) to one shot light armor classes, and red pillows to one shot heavy armor classes.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-12-30

While I agree that some situations favor an AoE damage spell... but I just don't see many thrown during the course of an average day at Darkon.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Inox » 2013-12-30

Kai Firebrand wrote:I disagree with this fear of being "one shot". half the classes in the game which should be more combat oriented have the potential to be "one shot" while this fear is under specific circumstances mages could be "one shot". Druids, thieves, assassins and warrior mages (sans missile weapons) all can be "one shot" while wearing the best armor possible, other classes besides monks only when they are wearing heavy armor that restricts their movement. (Chain + ). But it's cool, mages can use red weapons, (most damaging weapon in the game) to one shot light armor classes, and red pillows to one shot heavy armor classes.


Agreed. A Mage, using just a Red-White sword, can one-shot kill a:

Druid
Thief
Assassin
Monk below 15th Rank
Warrior Mage

They can only not one-shot a fellow Mage 6+; Monk 15+; or a Fighter, Ranger, Cleric, or Cavalier--assuming those classes are wearing Chain or Plate.

There's something wrong when the hybrid classes are all more squishy than the Mage.

Why should a Mage be able to weather a Backstab as well as a Plate-wearing Fighter, or be able to shrug two arrows to the chest before having to worry about a third?

Mages are supposed to be glass cannons, and we've let them become tanks.

As someone with a 20+ Mage & 40+ Monk, and who also plays other classes and wears armor, Steelskin is by far my best "armor" choice. Most bang for the buck. Oh, and it stacks with the Bracers.

While that's nice for me & all, it's not really the most balanced thing.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-12-31

I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that steel skin is not unbalanced compared to plate. I was trying to point out that i could not ever see a point to casting the new steel skin spell if the multi ball stuff passes. It would be a waste of time and sp.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Inox » 2013-12-31

If we can dial in the power level correctly, we can get rid of spell points. They are a horrible mechanic for balance.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Kel von Graymere » 2014-02-11

Inox wrote:
There's something wrong when the hybrid classes are all more squishy than the Mage.


A mage has to have about two years of average play until they can get steelskin. You're also assuming that the mage in question has the skill to stab around the other player's block/shield to get at their torso. If they were a super skilled fighter, why are they playing a mage?

You're also using the best possible scenario. I can do that, too. A mage swinging white to each hit-zone of a hybrid class could possibly have to swing 10 times before all their armor is gone, where as I can hit a mage three times with a black sword anywhere and drop them. We both know the reality of the situation lies somewhere in the middle.

Inox wrote:Why should a Mage be able to weather a Backstab as well as a Plate-wearing Fighter, or be able to shrug two arrows to the chest before having to worry about a third?

Mages are supposed to be glass cannons, and we've let them become tanks.


"Slightly better than a thief" is hardly a tank.

Inox wrote:As someone with a 20+ Mage & 40+ Monk, and who also plays other classes and wears armor, Steelskin is by far my best "armor" choice. Most bang for the buck. Oh, and it stacks with the Bracers.

While that's nice for me & all, it's not really the most balanced thing.


If it really was the best thing, all the people who play druids just for headband armor would be playing mages. The fact that we don't have an influx of stick-jock quasi-mages taking advantage of that best armor choice belies that comment.

I think a mage in your hands would certainly be as deadly as possible, Inox, but you're also not the average player, either. In the average Darkonian's hands, the mage is an effective tool for balance in the game. Fireball makes it so that heavy armor isn't the only default. Without the mage as it currently stands, there is less of a need for fast flanking elements, as archers and this nerfed pillow-tosser really aren't as deadly as the current AoE fireball. Because of that, heavy armor will rule the field, and that points to the larger, more established countries having an even greater dominance. They have the tools to build the stuff that makes wars easy.

Mages change that. Mages are required elements of Darkonian wars and battles. Mages make the guy who can't afford plate -but can put in the time- a key player in the game.

I really don't like this proposal. The people most for it are the most vocal opponents of magic in the game. And that alone should give you pause.

I say vote no.

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Sir Sturmbjorne » 2014-02-11

There are some things that need to be addressed:

You don't have damages in the description of the offensive spells, you have affects, but not damage... (IE Green for Fire Storm or Fire Bolt, and black for Chain Lightning....)
You also mention a radius in the description for Fire Bolt, but dont say how big it is and I thought the whole point was to get rid of radius spells...

Just some inconsistencies that need to be addressed.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Inox » 2014-02-12

Kel von Graymere wrote:
A mage has to have about two years of average play until they can get steelskin.


How long you have to play is irrelevant. If something is overpowering, it only matters if people are using it on the field.

There are many Mages over 10th rank. MANY.

Kel von Graymere wrote:You're also assuming that the mage in question has the skill to stab around the other player's block/shield to get at their torso. If they were a super skilled fighter, why are they playing a mage?


I suppose you could ask Malkin why he does. Plenty of skilled people play or have played Mages at a high rank.

Kel von Graymere wrote:You're also using the best possible scenario. I can do that, too. A mage swinging white to each hit-zone of a hybrid class could possibly have to swing 10 times before all their armor is gone, where as I can hit a mage three times with a black sword anywhere and drop them. We both know the reality of the situation lies somewhere in the middle.


Not really.

Most of the time, if you're decently skilled, you're either taking few shots, or ALL THE SHOTS AT ONCE. When you get surrounded or overrun, armor quickly ceases to matter.

What Steelskin does is dramatically up your chances against one-shot kills. Those are the absolute bane of anyone with gaps, or wearing only AC 1 or 2. Those do happen quite a lot.

I also can't remember the last time I took 10 hits in AC 2 when I wasn't dying at that moment. Like, ever. Or AC 3, for that matter. That's effectively a fictional scenario.

Kel von Graymere wrote:
"Slightly better than a thief" is hardly a tank.



A Mage and a Fighter in plate are the ONLY classes that can stop a Backstab.

Being a Mage is the only way you can take 2 arrows to the chest without wearing plate. This is especially relevant for a class that casts magic from a distance.

Steelskin & plate are also the only ways you can soak 2 Black hits without being dead or wounded.

They also do all this with NO gaps and NO weight.

That's a LOT better than AC 2, which stops only one Black, and ZERO stabs.

Kel von Graymere wrote:If it really was the best thing, all the people who play druids just for headband armor would be playing mages. The fact that we don't have an influx of stick-jock quasi-mages taking advantage of that best armor choice belies that comment.


Again wrong. Most stick jocks don't play Mages because they prefer larger shields. Plus, most of them come with hide armor that they want to wear. Druid fits that bill perfectly.

See, you confuse stick jocks with minmaxers. Stick jocks kick ass on the field because they are good with their weapons, not because they seek to leverage every bit of imaginary power.

Kel von Graymere wrote:I think a mage in your hands would certainly be as deadly as possible, Inox, but you're also not the average player, either.


I know you've had periods of being away and attending less and what not, but you do know I have a Mage over 20, right?

Kel von Graymere wrote:In the average Darkonian's hands, the mage is an effective tool for balance in the game. Fireball makes it so that heavy armor isn't the only default. Without the mage as it currently stands, there is less of a need for fast flanking elements, as archers and this nerfed pillow-tosser really aren't as deadly as the current AoE fireball. Because of that, heavy armor will rule the field, and that points to the larger, more established countries having an even greater dominance. They have the tools to build the stuff that makes wars easy.


Except not really. Most of the time in field fights, the person casting Fireball finishes long before a flanking side gets to them. The only exception is in really small fights.

And, in bridge, boat, or trail fights, flanking is often not possible. The Mage just rains death down in 15-20 second intervals. They don't even have to target anyone most of the time--just lob stuff in.

When we did a bridge battle with no AoE that was awesome. Every 20 seconds or so, a Mage will kill someone...but not cut a huge swath out of a line. Archers might be more effective against lightly armored or unshielded targets, but the Mage was key for taking out the big shields & heavies. WITHOUT AOE.

I've seen too many horrible fights determined almost entirely by Fireball (read: make believe pillow tossing) rather than by people swinging weapons, shooting bows, charging, etc. This is not what magic was intended to be, and it takes most of the fun right out of those fights.

Kel von Graymere wrote:I really don't like this proposal. The people most for it are the most vocal opponents of magic in the game. And that alone should give you pause.


It gives me pause that you are against it, and are from the country with arguably the most Mages. :D

I am a huge advocate for magic in the game, and I am for this. I think it needs to be present, but it needs to be balanced.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by shroom2021 » 2014-02-13

One thing I keep seeing that I am confused about is people wanting to keep AOE over multi ball.

If I read the proposal correctly, the multi ball gives a mage the ability to instantly remove up to three players from a battle regardless of their armour level. I see this as extremely powerful without resorting to AOE.

Kel von Graymere wrote:You're also assuming that the mage in question has the skill to stab around the other player's block/shield to get at their torso. If they were a super skilled fighter, why are they playing a mage?


As an average fighter, I do not have the ability to "insta kill" a person in full plate. I might be able to swing for gaps, but there is no gaurantee that they will be acknowledged as a gap shot, instead they might think it hit the armour. This is if I can get around some of the very large shields that are out there (Reference: Chosen Blood). I am wearing 40 plus pounds between my armour and my shield, in the summer I must constantly be drinking water or risk a heat injury.
I did not start playing as a fighter in full armour. It took me almost 4 years to accumulate the kit I wanted as armour can be very expensive, even if it looks like crap. Building your own armor is extremely time consuming, and even then it can end up looking like crap, and depending on what you are making, can still be expensive.
After all the time, money, and work to improve (around 5 years or so), I still cannot "insta kill" someone in full plate.

If I was a level 7 mage (less than 18 months of playing if you go to every event and campouts). With the current rules I can "insta kill" a fully armoured person after reading a few hundred words. I can do this without even getting close enough for them to hit me and I can always just lob it into their shield. In addition I get stoneskin, which gives me a single hit from any weapon(except a seige weapon) to anywhere without any encumberance. I could probably acheive better protection by covering myself in AR1 leather, but try doing that on a hot summer day and let me know if you feel encumbered. For 0 encumberence, this is exceptional armour.


I like having magic in the game. It seperates us from other similar organizations. If I didn't like magic at all, I would go play Dag instead, however magic should not be the most powerful element of our game. I think in it's current state it is unbalanced. This doesn't mean it always feels unbalanced, but in certain situations this comes out, most notably bridge battles/seiges.
Removing AOE isn't going to remove the relevance of a Mage. A lvl 7+ mage is still going to be able to kill a single fighter provided there is time to cast a fireball.
Last edited by shroom2021 on 2014-02-13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by aidant » 2014-02-13

Inox wrote:Being a Mage is the only way you can take 2 arrows to the chest without wearing plate.


You could also be a Warrior Mage with missile ward.

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Inox » 2014-02-13

aidant wrote:
Inox wrote:Being a Mage is the only way you can take 2 arrows to the chest without wearing plate.


You could also be a Warrior Mage with missile ward.



For the first one, yes. The second arrow kills you dead.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by aidant » 2014-02-13

Sorry, missile ward and ac3

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Inox » 2014-02-14

aidant wrote:Sorry, missile ward and ac3


Warrior Mages don't get AC 3.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by aidant » 2014-02-14

Warrior Mages are characters that have divided their time between martial pursuits and the study of the arcane. They are not permitted to use a shield of any kind, but they may use any non‐shieldbreaking weapon. They may wear armor of no greater than AC 3. All spells are as the Mage versions, unless specifically stated otherwise.


Did this get changed from what is in the rule book? I did not see anything about it in the list of rule changes you posted.

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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Inox » 2014-02-14

aidant wrote:
Warrior Mages are characters that have divided their time between martial pursuits and the study of the arcane. They are not permitted to use a shield of any kind, but they may use any non‐shieldbreaking weapon. They may wear armor of no greater than AC 3. All spells are as the Mage versions, unless specifically stated otherwise.


Did this get changed from what is in the rule book? I did not see anything about it in the list of rule changes you posted.


That's actually an error; under the old armor system, the Studded AC was 3. Now, it's AC 2.

Previous EBs should have caught that. Trust me; as a designer of the class, they cannot wear above Hide/Studded.
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Re: A New Perspective on the Mage class within Darkon

Post by Sir Sturmbjorne » 2014-02-14

Definitely says AC2... therefore, 1 arrow (Missle Ward) and 2nd you dead(AC1&2 dont stop reds)
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