Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

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Ryllin
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Joined: 2014-04-15

Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

Post by Ryllin » 2014-04-15

I hate the mechanics behind Giant size in Darkon. Kneeling is no fun for anyone and the mechanics do not make sense from a simulation perspective. The current mechanics lead to the Giant characters running around with supreme mobility while the smaller characters are stuck wallowing in the mud. In fights with giant size creatures in most (all) fantasy media the smaller characters have the quickness advantage and the giants have the damage. Giant growth is mainly used to fight giants or to give a maneuverability advantage to a team.

Proposed change to giant size:

Giant size characters do "giant" damage. A giant sized character calls "giant" as his damage type.
"giant" does double black damage
"giant" shield breaks with any weapon in 3 hits. All normal shield break rules apply.

Non giant size creatures may not initiate any non-weapon tactic on a giant.
Shield bashes, shield kicks, grapples, pushes, etc.

Giant size characters gain no benefits against other giant size opponents.

Members of the giant slayers guild count as a giant when fighting giants.

Remove all instances of kneeling from everywhere and everything.

My rationale is that the enormous size and strength of a giant should give them immunity to being impeded in anyway by non giant sized characters. The shield break represents either the shield breaking or the blocker getting knocked over, stunned, etc. Spears and arrows will be very useful while shields are nearly useless.

Thoughts? The damage could be adjusted to just double damage and the shield break # of hits could be adjusted by which weapon is wielded but making "giant" a standard damage/shield break type is simple and easy (as well as informing people that the individual in question is a giant). I don't think actual shield breaking weapons shattering shields in 1 hit when wielded by a giant is out of the question.

Discuss...

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Sir Sturmbjorne
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Re: Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

Post by Sir Sturmbjorne » 2014-04-16

So, I'm going to put my input on this here, as the FB page, as always, was hijacked by douches.

I like the thoughts you have here, to eliminate the need for kneeling make the Giant a Boss. Makes Sense.
I don't know that "Double black" is appropriate, maybe what Inox proposed of 3 points, like Maelstrom the Giant's Sword.

The not being able to use non-weapon tactics works well i think.

I personally also liked the note someone made that noone can "run" within 30 ft of a Giant. I think that this makes sense if you try to rationalize a Giant having larger strides than us. (Yes I am aware that not everything has to make 100% sense with physics/realism etc, but I like it :P)
Baron Wulfvin Sturmbjorne, KR, OSW, CC, OD, CM(Druid)
Knight of the Realm
King of Asaheim
Huskcarl and Jarl of Asaheim
President 2015
"Bound by honor, Released in death" - Felgardian Contract of Arms

mtaylor
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Joined: 2013-12-21

Re: Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

Post by mtaylor » 2014-04-17

From a safety stand point alone eliminating kneeling makes sense. I do not have sufficient experience with Darkon to comment on game balance as it relates to giants I do know that for some folk the condition of their knees means a requirement to kneel equals a giant that simply can not be fought safely.

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fingers630
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Re: Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

Post by fingers630 » 2014-04-17

So what would you like to have done with the following table:

Giant Encounter Chart

01-25 2 Owlbears (AR0, giant)
26-50 4 Owlbears (AR0, giant)
51-60 1 Troll (6 hits, giant, heals self at rate of 1 hit per minute,
Fireball kills instantly)
61-70 5 Ogres (6 hits and giant).

71-80 3 Trolls (6 hits, giant, heals self at rate of 1 hit per
minute, Fireball kills instantly).

81-90 5 Ogres (6 hits and giant) and 1 Ogre Magi (6 hits,
giant, 2 Lighting Bolts, Damaged only by Magic Weapons).

91-93 2 Hill Giants (8 hits and giant).

94-96 2 Frost Giants (9 hits, giant, does black damage, immune to ice spells).

97-99 2 Fire Giants (10 hits, giant, does black damage, immune to fire spells).

00 1 Storm Giant (10 hits, giant, does black damage & shield break, 3 lightning bolts,
immune to lightning spells, Damaged only by Magic Weapon)


Obviously we could just add a footnote to show Giant as having the following abilities.
- cannot be grappled or have initiated any non-weapon tactics (shield bashes, shield kicks, pushes) by a Non Giant size creature
- double damage with all weapons
- shield break with all weapons
- individuals within 30ft of a "Giant" may not run
- Giants may not be struck in the head by a non Giant sized creature

We could also adjust the damage system to black weapons doing 2 hits per strike instead of 1, to alleviate the problem some people have with white/black doing same number of hits. Of course if we do this, I suggest upping the hits of giants a few pips.

Finally will this apply to all the creatures on this list? If not Owl Bears and Ogres get royally screwed and will die in 10 seconds to any land search party (about 5 seconds less then they do now =P)
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

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fingers630
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Re: Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

Post by fingers630 » 2014-04-17

Ok as per discussion on the FB page, I have made alterations to all monsters on the "Giant" land search chart. In addition, I have modified all Adult Dragons, Hydra, Chromatic Dragon, and Ancient Red Dragon. we will be running some scenarios with these monsters in them at the next Darkon Event, after the Easter Egg hunt.

Some examples:
OWL BEAR
You have AR 0 (plate hits)
You do Black Damage
You shield break (3 hits)
You cannot be grappled, or have Non Weapon Tactics initiated against you


Ogre
You have 6 hits
You shield break (3 hits, 1 hit with “Black” weapon)
You do Black Damage
You cannot be grappled, or have Non Weapon Tactics initiated against you
You cannot be struck in the head by non Spellballs


Frost Giants
You have 9 hits
You shield break (3 hits, 1 hit with “Black” weapon (Sword/Glaive/Axe/Halberd)
You do “Giant” damage (3pts)
You cannot be grappled, or have Non Weapon Tactics initiated against you
You cannot be struck in the head by non Spellballs
You are Immune to Ice Storm


Adult Blue Dragon
(Played by 4 people)
Head: You have 4 hits and 3 Lightning Bolts (0 Casting Time), You do Black Damage
Claws: You have 3 hits and do “Giant” Damage (3pts), You shield break (3 hits, 1 hit with “Black” weapon (Sword/Glaive/Axe/Halberd)
Tail: You have 2 hits and do “Giant” damage (3pts). You shield break (3 hits, 1 hit with “Black” weapon (Sword/Glaive/Axe/Halberd)
You cannot be grappled, or have Non Weapon Tactics initiated against you
You cannot be struck in the head by non Spellballs
You are Immune to all “Lightning” Spells
You are Damaged ONLY by Magic Weapons (Enchant Item/ True Strike)


Hydra
(Played by 3 people)
Head: You are Immune to all damage/spells and do Black Damage and have 1 Fire Ball each
Body: You have 15 hits and regenerate 1 hit per 30sec until destroyed, You do “Giant” Damage (3pts)
You cannot be grappled, or have Non Weapon Tactics initiated against you
Body cannot be struck in the head by non Spellballs
When Body is destroyed, Heads fall innert
You are Damaged ONLY by Magic Weapons (Enchant Item/ True Strike)
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

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Guy The Bloodied
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Re: Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

Post by Guy The Bloodied » 2014-06-13

As a giant slayer, I personally think this sounds cool. It makes the giant Mechanic actually fun for the non giants while keeping the giant-sized creatures an actual threat. It will eliminate a lot of grief AND my guild will still be useful as hell. I dig it.
Guy LeDouche the Bloodied
Chosen Warboss of Ched Nasad
Chaos Monk of Khorne
Matron Mother of House LeDouche
"We kneel to no man...because we can't"

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fingers630
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Re: Giant Size Change AKA Kneeling is terrible

Post by fingers630 » 2014-06-13

We have yet to playtest this due to tourneys, Senate, and other things filing up the schedule. Obviously triple land search Sunday + Senate + the activities planned will push it back further, but I hope to do it sometime soon.
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

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