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Headband Spell Recharge

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Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Inox » 2012-02-13

So, I had an idea regarding a compromise with headband spells recharging.

Right now, you cast them once at the beginning of a battle day, and they last the whole time, recharging after every fight.

However, on adventure days, they cost a point (or two, in the case of Steelskin) each and every time they're cast.

While I don't think they should be free on days when casters get a greater compliment of powerful spells, I had an idea.

What if on adventure days, headband spells would regenerate until the caster expended any other spell points. So, let's say a Mage cast Steelskin. He could wade in and fight all day, and have a blast, but as soon as he tried to throw a Fireball, his headband would not regenerate after he took hits.

Zero spell point spells would be ok (Light, Detect Magic, Magic Missile).

I mean, really, if people want to horde points for a massive Fireball bombing at some point during a campout or adventure, all they have to do now is sit on the sidelines or in camp, or simply fight sans headband & not cast.

This, however, gives people who want to fight again & again some of the same latitude they have at day battles, provided they restrict their casting.

Thoughts?
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-02-13

I'm not sure how I feel about that. I think there could be a lot of cheesing it up and some possible cheating. I guess I would have to see what they we going to do to recharge it.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Inox » 2012-02-13

Possibly w/ the cheating, but we're on an honor system now with people counting their spell points.

Honestly, I'd like to see us move away from a spell point system entirely. It is wayyyyy too difficult to track, and it encourages Fireball dumps (like yesterday's bridge battle, where I got Fireballed 8 or 9 times in one fight).
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-02-13

-Inox- wrote:Possibly w/ the cheating, but we're on an honor system now with people counting their spell points.

Honestly, I'd like to see us move away from a spell point system entirely. It is wayyyyy too difficult to track, and it encourages Fireball dumps (like yesterday's bridge battle, where I got Fireballed 8 or 9 times in one fight).


Get rid of spell points won't stop you from getting firebombed en mass.

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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-02-13

I hate to be the one who points this out ... but the classes that get armor without wearing any armor are getting this armor essecencially for free because of thier class choice and some restrictions on weapons. Having them have to use spell points to use spells to me is fair and balenced. The way it is now they get the armor precast and ready to use on battle days - to give them the same bonus on adventure days when spell points can and are supposed to make a difference is just plain c...p :)

I know a lot of people think there should be no restrictions on how often a player can cast - that they should not have to keep track of spell points - that everyone shopuld be able to use every skill or spell - that all takes away from what darkon has been about for over 20 years and what makes darkon great and different from most other organizations out there.

I do not agree with the idea of removing spell points.
I do not like the idea of making all classes have to do less to qualify to get more.
I do not like the idea of minimalizing requirements to play a class.
I do not like the lumping of classes and abilities and powers that has been going on over the last few years.

I do like change that helps define what makes darkon a great game.
I do like people looking into changes that can and should make the game better.
I do like upgrades in tech that makes the game safer.
I do LOVE DARKON.

In this case I do not agree with removing that which people who have come out for years playing the same character get as a bonus for playing that single character over and over and over.

Removing spell points makes it so once a player reaches a certain level and gets full spell reduction they would no longer have to "think" and penalizies all players that stay with the same class and character once they passed a certain level.

To be frank its cheese. :)

But then what do I know lol

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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-02-13

I wonder if this proposal comes because we have MANY day events marked as Adventure Days.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Sir Caetrel » 2012-02-13

The fire bombing was annoying, but it could have been alleviated if the elders split up the fireballing mages. I believe the parking lot side team had none and the opposing side had two or more.

That was also the absolute perfect scenario for fireballs to take out alot of people, moreso than the usual bridge battle because we only had at most 10 feet of width to stand on.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby fingers630 » 2012-02-13

actually there were only 3 fireballing mages that i saw in bridge battle. there were at least 1 on each side, the sides were pretty fair. get over it, fireballs/warp wood are very useful in bridge battles. i saw a bunch of curses thrown, and i threw hold person. everyone of them hit as there were a mass of bodies.

bridge battles are just * anyway and 5 second rez nullifies any real gain by fireball. yes you were out of the fight for 25 seconds, but you got right back in and beat more ass. the bridge battle lasted for maybe 20 min.

in the future, assuming we have more than 2 elders volunteering to help run things, MAYBE we can run some non aoe spell bridge battles. or some with no rez. im hoping the President whips it out and lays down the law about mandatory elder help from ALL countries.

*edit* not saying you were bitching gerrard :)

back to OP, im kinda on the fence about the spell recharge.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-02-13

fingers630 wrote: im hoping the President whips it out and lays down the law about mandatory elder help from ALL countries.


Highly unfair to pretend to be psychic Thom since you and I talked about this at the event :twisted:
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby fingers630 » 2012-02-13

my psychic knows no bounds!
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby TitusV » 2012-02-14

I completely agree with Cailen. Exsilium will not support any proposal reducing spell point use. We also feel that magic missile is overpowered for being 0 spell point cost. I would have argued to make
It white damage and 75 words but we weren't in attendance of those senate meetings so that is what we get.

Armor looks cool, it makes the game more realistic looking and more realistic feeling. There are a lot of moves you can't do with armor on so it becomes a big decision between agility and defense. We should be promoting it's use not making it obsolete by slowly tweaking headband armor. People argue about stick jocks all being Druids for their large shields and headband armor. This is what we are promoting with our rule set.

Sorry for any typos. I'm on an iPhone.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Sir Gwydion » 2012-02-14

Also, this proposal would make spellcasting more complicated.

You will say "it's not THAT complicated" and "I'm sure people can figure it out" but the fact of the matter is that it's more complicated. Also, it's something that other players can't see, so they won't know if there is cheese going on or not.

Besides: this proposal ENHANCES the spell point dump in the big battle and DISCOURAGES mages from casting any other spells during the day!
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-02-14

The only issue I see in regards to spell points is how to handle them at day events on Adventure Days.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Taggart MacBannion » 2012-02-14

I don't think this would do change anything for the better, especially when you consider that the people who have a lot of spell points to blow could simply cast pouch/magic stone before casting their headband armor.

Spell points are not too difficult to track by any means, its basic subtraction for anyone who's responsible enough to do it.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Lord Valfryn » 2012-02-14

my answer:
bridge and trail battles= no aoe, or make the wizard chuck a giant red javelin, and aoe off of that. hard not to notice, and the size of the object itself will limit the amount thrown... though wizards walking around with duffel bags full of red javs will look heinous.

other answer: skins go away. at most they augment the armor worn by 1 level of AR rating, (bark skin), and give mages leather AR for all I care, so if they want to wear a leather catsuit and cast fireball, upgraded to studded AR... godspeed you, catsuit wizard. Godspeed you. (or the magerobe spell/ability we were kicking about)
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-02-14

TitusV wrote:I completely agree with Cailen. Exsilium will not support any proposal reducing spell point use. We also feel that magic missile is overpowered for being 0 spell point cost. I would have argued to make
It white damage and 75 words but we weren't in attendance of those senate meetings so that is what we get.

Are you kidding? Overpowered? It does almost nothing. It's easily blocked by a shield and doesn't damage the shield in anyway. Compared to lightning bolt, which is the same length in the end and costs one point, I can destroy your shield. The tradeoff for it being 0 spell points is that it doesn't destroy your shield.

As a mage, i find it a rather useless spell and would likely cast lightning bolt over it most of the time.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby TitusV » 2012-02-14

For zero spell points you can take out the majority of Darkon with a black to the head. That's why I feel it is overpowered.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Inox » 2012-02-14

TitusV wrote:Armor looks cool, it makes the game more realistic looking and more realistic feeling. There are a lot of moves you can't do with armor on so it becomes a big decision between agility and defense. We should be promoting it's use not making it obsolete by slowly tweaking headband armor. People argue about stick jocks all being Druids for their large shields and headband armor. This is what we are promoting with our rule set.


I am hugely in favor of more armor on the field.

What I am also in favor of is that whatever class you choose, you should be able to suit up accordingly with it's protective benefits, and fight all day.

Mostly this doesn't concern me, as I play a Warrior Mage in Hide & Studded these days, and I generally eschew Missile Ward in favor of a helmet (since my headband doesn't fit over it :D). However, I hate to think that anyone's hanging back from the melee fight over spell points (been there, won't do that again).


Lord Valfryn wrote:other answer: skins go away. at most they augment the armor worn by 1 level of AR rating, (bark skin), and give mages leather AR for all I care, so if they want to wear a leather catsuit and cast fireball, upgraded to studded AR... godspeed you, catsuit wizard. Godspeed you. (or the magerobe spell/ability we were kicking about)


I like this idea, actually. Headband armor is something that I think we could really improve the look of the game by removing. However, could it ever pass?

I like the idea of Mage robes counting as AC 4. I think Druids are already able to wear Hide (AC 3), so Barkskin isn't strictly needed except for "skin" armor or shifting leather hats to AC 3. Monks...well, we could always just do a similar thing as for Mages.

For Missile Ward, just give them bucklers or something.

It could be done, but the pushback would be immense, I think.



Lord Valfryn wrote:my answer:
bridge and trail battles= no aoe, or make the wizard chuck a giant red javelin, and aoe off of that. hard not to notice, and the size of the object itself will limit the amount thrown... though wizards walking around with duffel bags full of red javs will look heinous.


Yeah, I got fireballed 8 or 9 times, and my only other death was when one of my own teammates fell into me and pushed me off the trail. There's something wrong when you aren't even in combat long enough to die to weapons (or even be hit!) and just keep getting destroyed by spells.

This is even WORSE now that people are saying there were only like 3 Mages TOTAL FOR BOTH SIDES throwing Fireball. Imagine 5 or 6 on a side (totally can & does happen).

I think we should playtest no AoE in certain types of fights, and see how it works out. Hell, why not have a Mage throw multiple balls per casting, but no AoE?
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-02-14

There's something wrong when you aren't even in combat long enough to die to weapons (or even be hit!) and just keep getting destroyed by spells.


I really think we need to be honest with reasons behind this entire debate.

At least one person thinks its not fun to be killed by pillows that do AOE damage. This being the case those people should put together a proposal to remove AOE or replace it with something else and submit it to Senate.

The worst that can happen is the Club says 'no' but you won't know until you try. The 10 people that post on the forums and the 20 that read it do not make up the majority of opinions.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Inox » 2012-02-14

It's not fun for me, John, but I accept the fact that it will happen in a game with magic. Nor do I want to strip the game of magic.

However, I think we can all agree that there is a functional, objective limit beyond which Fireball would completely negate the ability to have a battle with a balance between casting and melee.

When I die again and again to spellballs, and am not even STRUCK in melee combat (and I am in melee range the entire time), something feels unbalanced to me about that.

I think there is a compromise where spellcasters throw plenty of spellballs, but they do not have such a disproportionate effect.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Inox » 2012-02-14

TitusV wrote:For zero spell points you can take out the majority of Darkon with a black to the head. That's why I feel it is overpowered.


Halving the word length and making it White would accomplish the same result re: heads. A White to the head/face would take out someone without armor just as easily...and a Studded or better helm soaks a Black anyway.

However, then you'd see a lot more of them flying, since you'd cut the time in half. You'd also introduce needless confusion with the Wand.

As it is, the casting time makes it an inferior choice to even Lightning Bolt, and Lightning isn't blockable by a shield (well, it is, but it destroys the shield).

The idea behind it is that Mages should always be able to cast, just like Fighters should always be able to swing a weapon & use shield/armor. They have a low-powered option that never goes away. However, most of the time, a Mage will rely on something not so easily absorbed or blocked.

How many Magic Missiles did you see in the closely-packed bridge fight? I saw zero.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Ogre Solaris » 2012-02-14

Not to mention that Magic Missile is the most inferior missile weapon in the game unless you count Word of Holding.

Arrows are better
Javelins, damage-wise are better
Fireball is WAY better
Siege engines are better
Lightning Bolt is better
Curse is better in my opinion (and takes much longer to cast)
Long spears are at the extreme end of melee range and still are better than MM.

If you don't want a spell ball to take you out when hit in the head, wear a helmet.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby fingers630 » 2012-02-14

Word of Holding is pretty damned good. Ive won plenty a fight with it.

What I am also in favor of is that whatever class you choose, you should be able to suit up accordingly with it's protective benefits, and fight all day.


I agree with this 100%.

Next bridge battle I will definitely throw in some 0 AOE time to limit the insta death aoe fireball fest.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby TitusV » 2012-02-14

God I hate writing in general but here is my reasoning. Language is not my strong point.

The spell point cost is what keeps magic using classes in balance. I am okay with day events having the rule that headband armor does not have to be recast. That being said, when adventure rules are in effect headband armor should cost spell points for the balance aspect. The caster has to make decisions and use his/her spell points wisely. Become a glass cannon and fire spells away or spend points for higher defense which will lower your offensive capabilities.

Mages and other spell casters are not meant to go toe to toe with fighters all day. They can for a short period of time if they use their spells wisely. This proposal is trying to turn these classes into more head to head combatants. There are existing classes that excel at this already. Lets not morph every class to be jacks of all trades/master of none.

I don't think that halving the casting cost of magic missile and making it white damage is the same as the current magic missile rule for a couple of reasons. A basic helmet, ie hide, would be able to absorb 1 white spell ball. The other is that it takes 2 hits for someone to effectively take the same amount of damage as a black hit. This gives the person 2 attempts to dodge the attacks. I don't see how the wand of gartan should be taken into consideration.

I did not fight in the bridge battle so I can't attest to what went on. However, mages had spell points so they threw fireballs. Thats their best offensive spell so why not use it.

The other thing I want to add is that there is a place for AOE. I get fire balled up just as much as the next guy. That being said we should not change the game mechanics. Mages excel in tight spaces. A mage could effectively defend a gated passage by himself. This is good! There should be places where each class excels at.

My next comments are not meant to offend anyone. The passed couple of years Darkon has been proposing rules and passing rules that do not take the game as a whole into consideration. Iltz you said that you do not cast magic missile. You are only taking your own perspective into account. Inox, you are proposing 0 point headband armor when you play a lot of classes that use headband armor. We need to start thinking about how rules affect Darkon in a holistic sense.

Classes should be different. This promotes roleplay, interaction, and problem solving. This is what Darkon is about. Classes are slowly merging towards some type of generic class that has fighting and magic casting abilities.

Ok Inox, tear me a new one now. I think I just figured out what an ad hominem attack is as as well as what a straw man arguement is.
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Re: Headband Spell Recharge

Postby Taggart MacBannion » 2012-02-14

TitusV wrote:God I hate writing in general but here is my reasoning. Language is not my strong point.

The spell point cost is what keeps magic using classes in balance. I am okay with day events having the rule that headband armor does not have to be recast. That being said, when adventure rules are in effect headband armor should cost spell points for the balance aspect. The caster has to make decisions and use his/her spell points wisely. Become a glass cannon and fire spells away or spend points for higher defense which will lower your offensive capabilities.

Mages and other spell casters are not meant to go toe to toe with fighters all day. They can for a short period of time if they use their spells wisely. This proposal is trying to turn these classes into more head to head combatants. There are existing classes that excel at this already. Lets not morph every class to be jacks of all trades/master of none.

I don't think that halving the casting cost of magic missile and making it white damage is the same as the current magic missile rule for a couple of reasons. A basic helmet, ie hide, would be able to absorb 1 white spell ball. The other is that it takes 2 hits for someone to effectively take the same amount of damage as a black hit. This gives the person 2 attempts to dodge the attacks. I don't see how the wand of gartan should be taken into consideration.

I did not fight in the bridge battle so I can't attest to what went on. However, mages had spell points so they threw fireballs. Thats their best offensive spell so why not use it.

The other thing I want to add is that there is a place for AOE. I get fire balled up just as much as the next guy. That being said we should not change the game mechanics. Mages excel in tight spaces. A mage could effectively defend a gated passage by himself. This is good! There should be places where each class excels at.

My next comments are not meant to offend anyone. The passed couple of years Darkon has been proposing rules and passing rules that do not take the game as a whole into consideration. Iltz you said that you do not cast magic missile. You are only taking your own perspective into account. Inox, you are proposing 0 point headband armor when you play a lot of classes that use headband armor. We need to start thinking about how rules affect Darkon in a holistic sense.

Classes should be different. This promotes roleplay, interaction, and problem solving. This is what Darkon is about. Classes are slowly merging towards some type of generic class that has fighting and magic casting abilities.

Ok Inox, tear me a new one now. I think I just figured out what an ad hominem attack is as as well as what a straw man arguement is.


Save for your reasoning on magic missile, you said what needed to be said about this completely. We only should ever change when the vast majority of the realm is in approval of the proposed change. If a person were to go out and have discussion with everyone in the realm, I am sure these ideas would completely bomb.
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