Growth Spell

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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fingers630
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Growth Spell

Post by fingers630 » 2012-03-26

This proposal is to remove the griefing of PCs with the Growth Spell, and to keep Giant Size to NPCs only.
Due to the "nerf" of the spell, I have reduced it's spell length to 300 words. I would also be open to extending the duration to 30 minutes. Thoughts?

Current Rule:

Growth3
Rank 7 - Adventure Only
Length 500 words Duration 15 minutes Range Touch Area of Effect 1 creature Energy Cost 1 spell point Material Component White headband with letter ‘G’ in the center
This spell causes any one man-sized creature to grow in size and mass to that of a giant. Any player within 30' of an enlarged creature must get on their knees to show the growth.
This spell does nothing but increase the size of the creature; the creature gains no other bonuses and its attacks are normal for the creature’s weapon type.

Proposed Rule:

Growth3
Rank 7- Adventure Only
Length 300 words Duration 15 minutes Range Touch Are of Effect 1 creature Energy Cost 1 spell Point
Material Component White headband with letter ‘G’ in the center
This spell causes any one man-sized creature to grow in size and mass to that of a giant. Any player under the effects of a Growth spell does not have to get on their knees for any giant sized NPC.
This spell does nothing but increase the size of the creature; Growth has no effects on other PCs, the creature has no other bonuses and its attacks are normal for the creature’s weapon type.
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
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Lord Cailen Sendor
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-03-26

I might make the duration "lasts untill dispelled or the player dies" keep the reduced 300 word length ... you are gimping a powerfull spell in a way that removes most of its current real use... there is no reason at all to then limit it to a time duration because it will become barley be used as it is if the change goes into effect.

It is a very hard spell to change its current effects then have the change actually mean anything to the mages using it .... one idea would be to keep the casting and time the spell is active the same but not allow ANY running within 30' of a player that is under the spell accept the players that have the spell on them in this manner they can still run... in that way a player that has it on them has "increased size and therefore increased stride" they could use the spell to escape as it is used now it would still slow a groups movement BUT no one would looose a knee to a rock or ruin thier garb or gear just to move.
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-03-27

I like this. I would even say let it ride all day, until dispelled or killed.
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Alzarahn
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-03-27

The growth mechanic is what people have a problem with, is it not? The down on bad knees action?
I might be talking out my ass, but I have a few ideas on how to keep the tactics without the on-the-knees play.

You can remove Growth, and add two new spells.

Shrink, a spellball that makes Giant-sized creatures smaller. It would need a longer casting time or penalty due to the fact that it's more powerful in a way, that it lets your allies also stand against giants. Maybe make the casting mage need to concentrate to maintain the effect?

Repel, a spell that won't allow players to come closer than six feet from the mage, and vice-versa (to prevent "pushing"). The mage can move freely unless blocked by obstacles or players. This means the only weapons that can reach the mage are long spears and ranged weapons, as well as spells. It lasts a very short time and is instantly dispelled if the mage is hit.

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fingers630
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-01

Not much discussion. Guessing the bitching about growth has gone away? Cool deal.
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Inox
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Inox » 2012-04-01

Growth, as it stands, is a hideous spell.

I like this rewrite. Cosign.
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TitusV
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by TitusV » 2012-04-02

Shrink = dispel

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Alzarahn
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-02

TitusV wrote:Shrink = dispel

Not really. The Shrink idea I present would work on NPC giant-sized creatures where Dispel wouldn't have the same effect.

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TitusV
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by TitusV » 2012-04-03

Oh ok. I get it now. It would be used only for NPCs.

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fingers630
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-03

Growth3
Rank 7- Adventure Only
Length 300 words Duration 1 hour Range Touch Are of Effect 1 creature Energy Cost 1 spell Point
Material Component White headband with letter ‘G’ in the center
This spell causes any one man-sized creature to grow in size and mass to that of a giant. Any player under the effects of a Growth spell does not have to get on their knees for any giant sized NPC.
This spell does nothing but increase the size of the creature; Growth has no effects on other PCs, the creature has no other bonuses and its attacks are normal for the creature’s weapon type.


I have changed the duration to 1 hour due to the removal of PC griefing with this spell. I felt 15 minutes was far too short and permanent may turn some people off. I could also make it a multi part proposal with line item veto for the duraiton. Permanent, and if that fails, change to 1 hour.

Thoughts? Any other co-signers?
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
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Queen of the Silly People

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"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

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Kobalos
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Kobalos » 2012-04-04

fingers630 wrote:Thoughts? Any other co-signers?


I definitely support a Growth spell for use vs. other Giant-sized critters. Alas, I'm not currently in a country and am thus not a senator. If that doesn't matter, then "Cosign".
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fingers630
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-04

I think any member of the game can cosign for submitting proposals. hell you proposed stuff! :)
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-04

The growth mechanic, while I don't care about it, in general, even vs NPCs would still be broken.

It's not useful in a mixed-company situation. What if New Mordom is fighting giants at a campout and some of them are using Growth? Then Laconia comes up to fight New Mordom? Laconia is at a disadvantage OR NM has to give up on their spell ability they spent spell points on while the giants then attack them while they kneel.

This is why the SHRINK spell should replace it and would be ideal. Call it SHRINK, give it a 10' radius spell ball (like dispel, basically) and it only effects giants.
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Inox
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Inox » 2012-04-04

Yeah, I think Shrink is better, actually.

Honestly, the whole on-your-knees mechanic is kind of clunky. Restricting movement based on foes is dumb. What's next?

"Oh, those NPCs represent tigers, so when you run from them, you can't go faster than a walk, because tigers are much faster than people and should be able to catch you."

Silly.
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fingers630
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-04

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:The growth mechanic, while I don't care about it, in general, even vs NPCs would still be broken.

It's not useful in a mixed-company situation. What if New Mordom is fighting giants at a campout and some of them are using Growth? Then Laconia comes up to fight New Mordom? Laconia is at a disadvantage OR NM has to give up on their spell ability they spent spell points on while the giants then attack them while they kneel.
This is why the SHRINK spell should replace it and would be ideal. Call it SHRINK, give it a 10' radius spell ball (like dispel, basically) and it only effects giants.



Um, how is this different than the way GG currently works? If Laconia currently comes up while NM is fighting giants at a campout, and NM has 2 guys with GG cast on them, Laconia still fights on their knees correct?

If you wanna propose a shrink spell that is fine, Ill step aside and drop this proposal. Personally fighting on my knees doesnt bother me.
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
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Queen of the Silly People

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"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

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Ogre Solaris
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-04-05

fingers630 wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:The growth mechanic, while I don't care about it, in general, even vs NPCs would still be broken.

It's not useful in a mixed-company situation. What if New Mordom is fighting giants at a campout and some of them are using Growth? Then Laconia comes up to fight New Mordom? Laconia is at a disadvantage OR NM has to give up on their spell ability they spent spell points on while the giants then attack them while they kneel.
This is why the SHRINK spell should replace it and would be ideal. Call it SHRINK, give it a 10' radius spell ball (like dispel, basically) and it only effects giants.



Um, how is this different than the way GG currently works? If Laconia currently comes up while NM is fighting giants at a campout, and NM has 2 guys with GG cast on them, Laconia still fights on their knees correct?

If you wanna propose a shrink spell that is fine, Ill step aside and drop this proposal. Personally fighting on my knees doesnt bother me.



The only real difference is after the NPC giants are dead.

If the NM mages cast growth on themselves and the giant was killed, then Laconia would still be on their knees with the rest of NM, at least with the current rules.

With the proposed change, the two mages get GG for the duration of the giant fight, then everyone stands up and fights on equal footing despite the GG spell because it only works against NPCs.

It is not any different at all during the fight with the NPCs though. The fact that they are giants makes everyone but the GG mages kneel regardless of which country they are from (excluding giant slayers guild members) or which rule you use. Shrink would actually change both halves of the fight in that everyone would stand against the giants and against each other.
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-05

fingers630 wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:The growth mechanic, while I don't care about it, in general, even vs NPCs would still be broken.

It's not useful in a mixed-company situation. What if New Mordom is fighting giants at a campout and some of them are using Growth? Then Laconia comes up to fight New Mordom? Laconia is at a disadvantage OR NM has to give up on their spell ability they spent spell points on while the giants then attack them while they kneel.
This is why the SHRINK spell should replace it and would be ideal. Call it SHRINK, give it a 10' radius spell ball (like dispel, basically) and it only effects giants.



Um, how is this different than the way GG currently works? If Laconia currently comes up while NM is fighting giants at a campout, and NM has 2 guys with GG cast on them, Laconia still fights on their knees correct?

It's not different. The problem is that people want it to ONLY be used against NPCs, which is impossible to do without making so that anytime anybody else shows up, the spell is useless.

That is why a shrinking spell is better - it can't be messed up by another country showing up to fight.
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-05

Shrink spell is too powerful.

Growth negates giant size for 1 combatant.
Shrink negates giant size for all combatants, making giant sized NPCs useless.

Case in point. Two growthed PCs and 10 normal PCs fight a Dragon. Due to abilities and hits, Dragon kills 2 Growthed PCs, and continues to mosh through the nomal PCs due to his size bonus.

Same fight with shrink spell. Twelve PCs walk up to Dragon. 1 PC casts Shrink. Dragon is gang raped by 12 PCs even with 100 hits.

See my point?
Ill stick with Growth as it is now thanks.
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Kobalos » 2012-04-05

In a campout situation, with two opposing forces both grappling with the same giant, I would want to preserve the tactical advantage by using Giant Growth on my "team". The other force would have to fight from their knees, and possibly incur more injuries, this way.

It's not griefing, it's tactics. Tactics that would be lost if we simply shrink the giant.
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-05

fingers630 wrote:Shrink spell is too powerful.

Growth negates giant size for 1 combatant.
Shrink negates giant size for all combatants, making giant sized NPCs useless.

Case in point. Two growthed PCs and 10 normal PCs fight a Dragon. Due to abilities and hits, Dragon kills 2 Growthed PCs, and continues to mosh through the nomal PCs due to his size bonus.

Same fight with shrink spell. Twelve PCs walk up to Dragon. 1 PC casts Shrink. Dragon is gang raped by 12 PCs even with 100 hits.

See my point?
Ill stick with Growth as it is now thanks.

I see your point. I am just trying to figure out a better way to make sense of it since people want to change things.

We could make it so the shrink spell only works in a 3' radius, thus making likely that it only hits one giant at a time. Therefore it becomes a disadvantage for one giant at a time.

We also could simply say it doesn't work on dragons. I mean, come on now, would even giant growth make you dragon-sized?
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-05

In this day and age there is a strong movement to keep thing/ make things simple, right? It seems like these ideas presented here are well thought out, but I don't see simplicity. Further, what is to stop giant NPCs from griefing you onto your knees anyway?

So I have to ask, is the mechanic of forcing players onto their knees unacceptable in the first place? In my opinion it is not particularly safe, rarely results in fun, restricts movement unrealistically, and is used more for grief than tactics.

Are there reasonable alternatives to make this mechanic more tactically useful, safe and fun? Examples I can think of...Giants break shields, Giants are immune to radius effect, Giants destroy or bypass armor, Giants are immune to head and arm shots. I bet a long list could be made.

So why not leave the mage spell alone, not nerf mages at all, and instead go straight to the heart of the matter...fighting on your knees is kind of dumb.
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Kobalos » 2012-04-05

Sir Caetrel wrote:So why not leave the mage spell alone, not nerf mages at all, and instead go straight to the heart of the matter...fighting on your knees is kind of dumb.


Yes, fighting on your knees is dumb. But the problem isn't generally the NPCs (giants), it's when a PC gets GG cast on him/her during a campout, forcing everyone to their knees. If the solution to the problem involves "fighting on your knees is dumb", then you're talking about removing the spell from mages, which does in fact nerf them. Hence this discussion, which is about how to remove the "griefing" (not my term) side of GG.
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-05

Kobalos wrote:
Sir Caetrel wrote:So why not leave the mage spell alone, not nerf mages at all, and instead go straight to the heart of the matter...fighting on your knees is kind of dumb.


Yes, fighting on your knees is dumb. But the problem isn't generally the NPCs (giants), it's when a PC gets GG cast on him/her during a campout, forcing everyone to their knees. If the solution to the problem involves "fighting on your knees is dumb", then you're talking about removing the spell from mages, which does in fact nerf them. Hence this discussion, which is about how to remove the "griefing" (not my term) side of GG.


NPCs can and have griefed as well. What I am wondering is if there a way to change the GG mechanic so that it is equally powerful as it is now, without the getting on your knees part. Changing/ nerfing/ taking a spell away from mages is what I would like to avoid.
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-05

If we remove giant sized NPCs from the game, we might as well remove the creatures all together. No Dragon, even with infinite fireballs and 1000 hits will beat a well armed force of 10 guys. The proposal I submitted above removes the grief aspect of Giant Growth from the game and allows NPCs to continue to be viable with their current abilities.

Im fine if people dont want to support it, but I do not support shrinking NPCs.
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Re: Growth Spell

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-05

It's a matter of what GG does tactically. I think it could be replicated with a few things...

1. Cannot run within 30 ft.
2. Cannot grapple or shield bash.
3. Cannot strike to the head except missiles.
4. Immune to all radius effects.
5. Immune to Shield Breaking weapons.

That is a pretty powerful list of abilities.
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