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Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-10

Full proposal with edits from Senate and taking into account Land Rules. (Feb. 8, 2012)

Chapter 2 changes – The gist of the proposal is to add warbands to the game. All other changes reflect the existence of warbands. Also note that ALIGNMENT as a topic is removed from the rules entirely and some changes to NOMADS.

Alignment (REMOVE SECTION)

The proposals Heraldry and Livery and Costuming replace parts of Chapter 2. This proposal will change the rest of Chapter 2 except the Knights and Nobles section.

Country
Individual player characters may join with others to form a country. A country is a ‘team’ of at least four players, with a banner and an Elder tunic (see Banners and Elder Tunics), and has registered with the Secretary. There is no maximum limit to the number of members a country may have, but they must have a minimum of at least four members.

Those players who wish to form a new country must submit a country description; name, culture, government, brief history etc., to the Secretary and show they have a banner and one elder tunic. The country is official once approved by the Secretary.

Warband
Individual player characters may join with others to form a warband. A warband is a ‘team’ of at least three players, with a banner and an Elder tunic (see Banners and Elder Tunics), and has registered with the Secretary. There is no maximum limit to the number of members a warband may have, but they must have a minimum of at least three members.

Those players who wish to form a new warband must submit a warband description; name, culture, government, brief history etc.,to the Secretary and show they have a banner and one elder tunic. The warband is official once approved by the Secretary.

Senators
Countries may send up to two Senators, warbands may send one Senator, to each Senate meeting to discuss and vote upon the introduction of new rules, the clarification of old rules, and any other business the Magistrate has for the Senate.

Unit Leaders
A country or warband may have up to two designated leaders, which speaks for it to the Magistrate, and is responsible for the actions of its members.

Defunct Units
Countries and warbands that allow six Darkon events to pass without checking-in at least the founding required minimum number of members in livery, their banner, and elder tunic before the close of check-in will lose their status, and all assets, including land, structures, and monies (see Chapter Eight: Land Rules.) In such cases, hexes of land revert to being empty and coffers cease to exist; remaining country members may continue to fight as nomads.

Nomad
Players in Darkon who are not members of a existing country, warband or retinue or whose country or warband has gone defunct are called "nomads." If a nomad was once a member of a country or warband that has gone defunct they may continue to wear the livery of the former country or warband and fight alongside those other previous members wearing the same livery. If the nomads are separated up during the event every attempt will be made to keep the players in the same livery together. Only existing countries or warbands may compete as a group to win in game prizes as a group.



Change the Elders entry in Chapter 1, last paragraph:

Any player who has at least 31 battle credits and has been approved by the Magistrate may serve as an Elder. Every country and warband must offer at least one member to act as an Elder at each event. It is the duty of all veteran players to serve as an Elder periodically. The Magistrate or Event Elder may enforce the one Elder per country and warband rule if he deems it necessary.




Part 2 - Changes to the Land Rules to accommodate Warbands

Reference WARBANDS next to country in each paragraph.

Add the following sections to the Land Rules:

New Warbands (placed right below New Countries)

In addition to the rules set forth in Chapter Two, warbands are given a single hex to function as the capital. The capitol of a warband is considered to be a fortified town, having both a keep and town (see definitions below) placed upon it. The country liason with the Land Marshal will work out where the capital is to be placed on the land map.

Unlike a country a warband does not receive any initial funds but like a country any funds they deposit to thier coffers will go into the warbands ‘treasury’. The treasury is assumed to be located at the capitol, but may be moved according to the rules below if a Country constructs additional Castles. In addition to functioning as a normal Castle, this structure also contains the entire Coffers of the Country.

Warbands are unable to perform all the activities of a country except those explicitly denied in this section. Warbands can not invade another country or warband, nor can they invade a hex on which they have previously conducted a land search.

Warbands are able to expand their assets and if a warband reaches 13 hexes, they automatically become a country and may use the Land Rules to their fullest extent as well as all other benefits to being a country set out in the rules.

Land Marshal Liaison (placed right below New Warbands)
Each country must designate one or two persons to be liaison(s) to the Land Marshal. This person(s) shall be responsible for notifying the Land Marshal of any land declarations made by their group. This includes the placing of original hexes of land, land searches, invasions, and the placing and construction of structures.


Co-Signers - Lord Cailen Sendor and Prince Malkin
Last edited by Lord Dubh on 2012-02-08, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Warbands

Postby DarkonAdministrator » 2012-01-10

Phantasm74 wrote:I've had this discussion with friends about MMO's but the same thing applies here. You absolutely have to have consequences for actions or someone will ruin it for everyone. It happens in any game, someone will either exploit things for an advantage or use a game to grief other people. A group with no real consequences (death doesn't really count when you only stay dead 12 minutes) because they don't have land or don't have to defend it is a bad idea in any game. You can argue that people can kill you over and over again, but they can do that anyway. That's not anything they can't do to a nomad or member of any country.

I'm not saying that if Tyriel, you have a warband, that you're going to go around being a dick to every country, but someone can and eventually will. Unfortunately, when I look at games and game design and balance, I have to take the worst case into account. I don't know what it is about gaming, but it always makes someone try to ruin it for everyone else and you have to design, alter, or add rules with that idiot in mind. The warband seems like it would be a dream for that guy. I really wish things don't have to be that way, but not in this reality, sorry.

Unless they participate in the land map (aka playing a Wargame, which Darkon is) I can't get behind the warband idea because they're basically not accountable for their actions. This has nothing to do with being fair or punishing anyone in particular, but if Kindred did something egregious against a country, they would go to war with us over it and try to take our land away. If a warband does the same thing, what can they do to you? Nothing outside of killing you which they already can do to anyone else too. It's a license to grief in my opinion. Again, this isn't directed at anyone, just me seeing how bad this could potentially be given the right idiots.

What happens if your one hex is invaded and you lose the field battle, then lose the resulting siege? The rules state that you must fight siege after siege until you retake your capital, but if that's the only hex you have, then you're not really affected except you have to fight people every event, which you want to do anyway.

If this is really about being a group of nomads fighting together under one banner, well I'm from Kindred so I'm sorry but form a country like we did. You don't need anything about warbands, land map, senate, or anything to wear the same stuff. If you really just want to fight together then propose that and not whatever this is.



Ya know, I can form a country and be a dick and you can come take all my land and siege the capitol. Result? Warband with one hex. I wouldn't even defend because I simply do not care. I am only exploiting the rules to get what I want....senate seats, my own symbols and coffers. In the mean time I am taking up valuable space on the map I wanted nothing to do with...

Let's prevent such stuff by allowing small units with a single hex. You can still beat on them, you can take their money...and they get to wear their own symbol and go to Senate.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-10

In the other discussion a lot of people weighed in giving thier opinions including the orignal poster of the proposal...

Most people including the orignal poster from what I saw agreed that one senator would be more then fair for the warband. In leu of that please change the wording as follows so as to address that and other concerns with wording...

1st...

Senators
Countries and warbands should send up to two Senators to each Senate meeting to discuss and vote upon the introduction of new rules, the clarification of old rules, and any other business the Magistrate has for the Senate)

Change to

Senators
Countries should send up to two Senators and Warbands can send up to one Senator to each Senate meeting to discuss and vote upon the introduction of new rules, the clarification of old rules, and any other business the Magistrate has for the Senate.


2nd change...

[color=#FF0000]Unit Leaders and Land Marshal Liaisons
A country may have up to two designated leaders, which speaks for it to the Magistrate, and is responsible for the actions of its members. Each country must designate one or two persons to be liaison(s) to the Land Marshal. This person shall be responsible for notifying the Land Marshal of any land declarations made by their country. This includes the placing of original hexes of land, Land Searches, Invasions, and the placing and construction of Structures.
[/color]

change to

Unit Leaders and Land Marshal Liaisons
A Country or Warband may have up to two designated leaders, which speaks for it to the Magistrate, and is responsible for the actions of its members. Each Country or Warband must designate one or two persons to be liaison(s) to the Land Marshal. All liaison(s) shall be responsible for notifying the Land Marshal of any land declarations made by their country. This includes the placing of original hexes of land, Land Searches, Invasions, and the placing and construction of Structures.


3rd...

Nomad
Players in Darkon who are not members of a country, warband or retinue or whose country or warband has gone defunct are called nomads. If a Nomad was once a member of a country or warband that has gone defunct he may continue to wear the livery of the former country or warband.

change to


Nomad
Players in Darkon who are not members of a existing Country, Warband or Retinue or whose Country or Warband has gone defunct are called Nomads. If a Nomad was once a member of a country or warband that has gone defunct they may continue to wear the livery of the former country or warband and fight alongside those other previous members wearing the same livery. If the nomads are seperated up during the event every attempt will be made to keep the players in the same livery together. Please remember only current existing Countries or Warbands may compete as a group to win in game prizes as a group.
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Re: Warbands

Postby TitusV » 2012-01-10

I like it.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-10

So it would end up as this...

Country
Individual player characters may join with others to form a country. A country is a ‘team’ of at least four players, with a banner and an elder tunic (see Banners and Elder Tunics), and has registered with the Secretary. There is no maximum limit to the number of members a country may have, but they must have a minimum of at least four members. To retain country status at an event, at least four players in proper country livery, the country banner and an elder tunic must be checked-in prior to check-in closure.

Those players who wish to form a new country must submit a country description; name, culture, government, brief history etc., to the Secretary and show they have a banner and two elder tunics. Once the Secretary has approved a new Country, they are given assets on the Darkon Realm Map and permitted to function as a Country per the Land Rules. (see Chapter Eight: Land Rules).

Warband
Individual player characters may join with others to form a warband. A Warband is a ‘team’ of at least three players, with a banner and an elder tunic (see Banners and Elder Tunics), and has registered with the Secretary. There is no maximum limit to the number of members a Warband may have, but they must have a minimum of at least three members. To retain warband status at an event, at least three players in proper Warband livery, the warband banner and an elder tunic must be checked-in prior to check-in closure.

Those players who wish to form a new Warband must submit a Warband description; name, culture, government, brief history etc.,to the Secretary and show they have a banner and one elder tunic. Once the Secretary has approved a new Warband they are given a single hex with keep and town on the Land Map to function as the capitol.

Warbands may conduct land searches and defend themselves when invaded. They may not invade a Country nor may they ‘invade’ when they lose a land search. If a Warband reaches 13 hexes, they automatically become a Country and may use the Land Rules to their fullest extent.

Senators
Countries should send up to two Senators and Warbands can send up to one Senator to each Senate meeting to discuss and vote upon the introduction of new rules, the clarification of old rules, and any other business the Magistrate has for the Senate.

Unit Leaders and Land Marshal Liaisons
A Country or Warband may have up to two designated leaders, which speaks for it to the Magistrate, and is responsible for the actions of its members. Each Country or Warband must designate one or two persons to be liaison(s) to the Land Marshal. All liaison(s) shall be responsible for notifying the Land Marshal of any land declarations made by their country. This includes the placing of original hexes of land, Land Searches, Invasions, and the placing and construction of Structures.

Defunct Units
Countries and Warbands that allow six Darkon events to pass without checking-in at least the founding required minimum number of members in livery, their banner, and elder tunic before the close of check-in will lose their status as a Country or Warband, and all assets, including land, structures, and monies (see Chapter Eight: Land Rules) will be lost. In such cases, hexes of land revert to being empty and coffers cease to exist; remaining Country members may continue to fight as nomads.

Nomad
Players in Darkon who are not members of a existing Country, Warband or Retinue or whose Country or Warband has gone defunct are called Nomads. If a Nomad was once a member of a Country or Warband that has gone defunct they may continue to wear the livery of the former Country or Warband and fight alongside those other previous members wearing the same livery. If the Nomads are seperated up during the event every attempt will be made to keep the players in the same livery together. Please remember only current existing Countries or Warbands may compete as a group to win in game prizes as a group.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-10

as written above are there cosigners?
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-12

No disrespect intended but Thrush and I will put in the final proposal.

The issue I have is you left out some key points - like the documentation to be submitted to the secretary. The request from Cort and Malkin that instead of Land Searches they only be able to expand via actual war (which needs to be clarified.)

And I have a REAL issue with the Senator part. Now you are creating a second class and third class 'citizenship' in the club membership. 1st class having 2 senators, 2nd class having 1 and third class having no representation at all.

I have no solution for nomads...we just have to suck it up. But the other two do not have to be...each UNIT in the club can get 2 senators. Just like Rhode Island and California both have two Senators. Size doesn't matter.

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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-13

please add your points :) feel free to use the wording changes that I already did where you find them approiate in addition Thrush stated that he wanted someone else to do the finish write up and that is what I tried to start the process of getting completed because obviously some things previously discussed did not make it into what was copied and pasted at the top of this forum :)


as far as senators Thrush was ok with no senate reps at all and that is what I orignally proposed as you know ... most other people in the conversation thought 1 was best ... only you were for a full 2 senators ... so that is why I put in one as a safe estimate that would satasafy 90% of the people that were interested in seeing this pass :)

as far as nomads getting votes the only way that would be fair or come to pass is if every single player in darkon got a single vote during a senate meeting that every single player was invited to attend

("Size doesn't matter." John who has been telling you this? :) (insert humor here)) We are making the warband have less land on the map... require less people (yea I know 4 down to 3 not much difference...) and that is why most people said 1 would be fair. No disrespect intended - or recieved only stating the facts of the feedback of what was discussed in the other proposal thread.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-13

Re: Nomads. 100% agree with Cailen's addition which enables members of a defunct country to play/ fight together. Sarum as example, returns after many years..we had a dozen at the last campout, and 4-10 at several of the last day battles. Making us split up would serve only to make returning to the game more difficult than is needed. I would not want to inflict that on anyone...and we all have retired friends who may choose to return at some point in the future.

Re: Warbands. I like the idea. I don't understand why the minimum number cannot simply be 4 to quell any reluctance over the Senate issue. Three hardcore attendance players having the same voting power as say, Elidor just doesn't sit well. You can argue the political science of it, but it is a step towards disparity IMO.

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Re: Warbands

Postby Prince Andrick » 2012-01-13

The thing is, our system is senate based, we have no house of representatives. It's not fair now, when Elidor has the same 2 votes as Myrix, even though Elidor has probably 10 times their active membership. Trying to determine how many votes a country should het based on size would be a nightmare.
I still think, despite John's reservations, 1 senator is a good compromise. That small group can always form a country if they choose and get the 2nd senator. Maybe this point needs to be a line item, leave the number of senators a warband gets up to the senate.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-13

If this would pass as written right now with only one Senator....I would support it as a player and on the EB. I would not want to hold up something that will add to our club just because of my own personal feelings of fairness.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-13

1 Senator makes sense.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-13

Changed to reflect 1 Senator for warbands.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-13

Thank you John I really do hope this passes it will streamline a lot of issues and almost "invite" countries to start feilding again as warbands :) and will open the door to other organizations to show up in mass and just have fun :)
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Re: Warbands

Postby LordTyrantCort » 2012-01-14

Why do countries now need two elder tunics?
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-14

Warlordcort wrote:Why do countries now need two elder tunics?


What do you mean now? We have always had to have two. But then...always was the 90's so it may have been changed. Last time I was President each country had to be prepared to send 2 Elders out each event.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-15

what I have seen is the following - when a country forms they need to present 2 eldar tunics ...

when a country fields they need to only show one...

that is how the wording and its enforcement has been to my knowledge
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-15

Lord Cailen Sendor wrote:what I have seen is the following - when a country forms they need to present 2 eldar tunics ...

when a country fields they need to only show one...

that is how the wording and its enforcement has been to my knowledge



That is what I thought as well. I looked through the terribly written Chapter 2 and it only ever mentions a single Elder Tunic, which it mentions several times. Apparently the requirement to have 2 when creating a country is no longer the case.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-15

Updated with all the edits.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-17

Please co-sign.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Jobin » 2012-01-19

Now i have a question and it may have been covered and im a moron but. Countries facing defunction will they have the option to be a warband losing their hexes and coffers instead of fully being wiped off the darkon map? Becuase that would make it alot easier per say in my case where a fourth person is hard to find.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Dubh » 2012-01-19

Jobin wrote:Now i have a question and it may have been covered and im a moron but. Countries facing defunction will they have the option to be a warband losing their hexes and coffers instead of fully being wiped off the darkon map? Becuase that would make it alot easier per say in my case where a fourth person is hard to find.


The simple answer is your country will go defunct and you will lose everything, but you can reform as a warband.
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Re: Warbands

Postby Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-01-19

I co-sign
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Re: Warbands

Postby HRH Malkin » 2012-01-19

Yes I co-sign...finally... ugh!
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Re: Warbands

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-01-27

This is a huge step in the direction of inclusiveness for Darkon. Well done sirs! The "good old boys club" kept us from reaching our potential, this will make Darkon easier to get into.

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