A Challange - The Role of the High King

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A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by President » 2012-04-26

There has been lots of IC attacks on the High King for his lack of response to the undead scourge. In fact almost every anti-royalty attack since the start of the year has been related to his lack of response. Further, several have become openly hostile and acted towards him as they would an enemy country. The problem is the rules are written in a way that prevents the High King from responding to any of the above situations. Believe me I have tried to find rule legal and clever IC methods of dealing with these situations but only so much can be done with the help of actual countries (Ched Nasad vs Waagh!)

So my challenge to all you is this:

Come up with a proposal to allow the High King to do something directly in response to the scourge, to countries in rebellion. Get it proposed and to the EB before the end of the year and I will support it. If this doesn't happen then the role of the High King will remain simply a vehicle for RP without any teeth to really be involved.

Thanks,

John Machate

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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-26

Actually the High King can respond to the things that have occured in character. When feilding he can target roming bands of undead over the personal choice to attack his own citizens. He can try and outfit his people to better fight the scourge.
1) Form an Undead Hunters Guild of sorts. Outfit a small group of people with silver and holy weapons. I see this as a more sort of goodwill and RP thing. A show of goodwill and force to put the realm at ease with the recent undead invasion.

All these things can be done AND SHOULD BE DONE to better protect the realm from what is occuring to its people.

None of these things require new rules.
None of these things are beyond his power unless he does not have any personal funds he is willing to invest to save his people.

As far as countries in rebelion I have this to say... It is thier right to rebel it is his right to do things in game to make them suffer for thier choice within the current rules and by using imaganation.

I have been approved to fight for king in the fall and God willing I will be able to. With that said if I do take the crown then I will require no man or country to bow to my will but rather either I have either EARNED thier respect or I have failed to earn thier respect. It is up to the person who is king to have the respect of others or to fail to - that is roleplaying and that is what Darkon is about. A king should not need a rule or law to be a good king for his people - his policies dictate how he will in turn be treated by those who live in the borders of his realm - To me it is the kings job to serve the people he is intrusted to protect NOT the other way around.

the king and the people and land are all one and if they do not work together they all will wither and fail to be healthy - strong - and fair to those in the realm
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-26

What can be done IC is being done.

My challenge still stands. If nothing comes of it then nothing comes of it.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-26

To your real question... you want a way the King by the game rules can punish those who rebel or chose to not follow him.

I for one will not give you ideas on how to further punish those he has failed to work with or earn thier respect.

:)
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-26

Lord Cailen Sendor wrote:To your real question... you want a way the King by the game rules can punish those who rebel or chose to not follow him.

I for one will not give you ideas on how to further punish those he has failed to work with or earn thier respect.

:)

More specifically, there are nations that are allowing the undead cult to build towers. How can Slindar respond to that? Or anyone else if they were king? They can't, since they cannot attack. Like John said, the only way to do it is like the Ched vs Waaaaagh thing.

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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-26

I've got top men on this. Top men.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-26

I for one would like the king to be able to rule "iron fist" and if you don't like it, take his crown.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-26

Lord Valfryn wrote:I for one would like the king to be able to rule "iron fist" and if you don't like it, take his crown.


An 'iron fist' or a 'silk glove'. No matter who is High King, respected or not, there are those that will support and oppose. I find it lame that people can harm the High King but he can do nothing directly, it is all by proxy.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-26

Wow ... he can rule iron fist if he likes... he can openly claim that the offending country is threatening the realm by working with the undead - he can request of the countries of Darkon they attack the country in question until that country agrees to stop doing things that threaten the rest of the realm. the countries of Darkon can march to the offending countries capitol (which would stop all building that country is currently doing)

all of this is in the rules...
all of this is the kings right to request to be done
all of this will only work if the reigning King is respected/followed and supported by those who he has the responsibility to rule

if he states this needs to be done and no countries step up to do as he requests then it is a showing of the actual power that the King has - there needs to be no new rules on this

the king only has the power that he has the ability to weild and only the friends and followers that he has earned the respect of

so yes some kings will have 0 power - some may have the power of fear - some may have the power of the people do we really need rules on this?
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-04-26

Something like King's Guard, a royal army that operates from Tarimstadt and its lands? You could create rules around who could join, maybe a set number from each country can volunteer or be conscripted, failure to send volunteers can be dealt with IC. Then let the king wage his war or whatever.

This wouldn't obligate the king to wage war, just give him that option. You could go 'silk glove' approach and be peaceful about it.

Wasn't something like that attempted recently though? I seem to recall discussion on it anyway. What happened to that? I would support the ability to conscript a temporary royal army and how the king chooses to use it is his own business.

That doesn't preclude this, mentioned above:

1) Form an Undead Hunters Guild of sorts. Outfit a small group of people with silver and holy weapons. I see this as a more sort of goodwill and RP thing. A show of goodwill and force to put the realm at ease with the recent undead invasion.


I like that, and once the scourge is gone, they can disband. The king should work with the plot committee on this to iron out any plot specific rules to cleanse a hex or somehow reduce the size of the undead army, decrease invasion rates, or whatever will actually effect the overall plot. There already is an undead slaying guild though, but not a group that can do more than kill them more effectively when encountered on the field. My cleric would join up immediately if there were a group that could actually combat them in a manner other than just killing them when they happen to show up at our doorstep.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by TitusV » 2012-04-26

I like the idea. It creates more action in the game. It does not matter who is king. Some countries will oppose. For example Exsilium. We will oppose any figure trying to exert authority over us. Our view is that the concept of a king is taking away our sovereignty. Sooo you can't earn our respect.

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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-26

Ogre Solaris wrote:Something like King's Guard, a royal army that operates from Tarimstadt and its lands? You could create rules around who could join, maybe a set number from each country can volunteer or be conscripted, failure to send volunteers can be dealt with IC. Then let the king wage his war or whatever.

This wouldn't obligate the king to wage war, just give him that option. You could go 'silk glove' approach and be peaceful about it.


Actually Darkon itself is the kings army all those who are a part of Darkon may chose to be in that army when /if the king calls countries to do what is needed to defend the realm. Each army can serve the king honorably - in that manner 16+ countries can be brought to bear on a situation all having thier own sovereignty and at the same time be working toward a mutual goal ... they can invade in mass acting alone but in unison. They can even gang up and hit each square with 2 - 3 armies (which has been done before) The idea that a sitting King needs to have a personal force directly run by him to do his bidding is exactly what asking a country to go to arms in defense of the realm is. Retinues and contries do not and are not forced to follow those that sit as king they can always say "no way I am not or we are not going to do that" so it gets back to making a rule to be able to force certian people to bend to your will without them having a personal or a group say in the matter. If a king is worth his salt then he should be able to weild this ability when /if it is ever needed. He can chose to accompany any one of the indivual armies as he sees fit or is requested to do by those who he serves.

Ogre Solaris - great ideas
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-26

TitusV I agree 100% that every country is sovereign. They have the right to be who ever they wish to be within thier borders it is only when they force others to bend to thier will or endanger others in the realm without a just cause or a reason to do so that it is the kings job and responsibility to look into the matter because it affects the safety and sovereignity of the countries that he serves to protect.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-04-26

Thanks, but I believe the guild was your idea.

I get the intent here, to make a way for the king to have direct power over what goes on through military force. There is a realm-threatening event and the king is limited in his power to affect it by the rules as written. That's a bad thing. The ability to create a non-country specific, non-retinue force united under one banner to perform specific tasks for the crown isn't such a bad idea. There are many organizations like that already but they lack heraldry and any group of random guys who would want to go combat the undead right now would lack both authority and power to do anything aside from fight them when they happen to rise up.

It's not a bad idea to give the High King that kind of power. You don't even need to make it a military thing, just formalize a process under which the king can create units that are able to be country/retinue agnostic, created for a specific purpose, and if needed given authority to perform that purpose. I would also add that they should wear common livery in addition to their own to designate them as part of whatever organization.

Authority here meaning, for example, the king would give the go ahead to attack any of the towers built by the necromancers or whatever they are. This would mean a force he assembles and could even lead himself would invade hexes occupied by said towers. Another option could be if the king suddenly wanted dragon scales for something he could organize dragon hunters and in the event that a hex was reported to have one residing there (ranger got away and the country was all killed on land search), they could invade, kill it, and leave the hex as unexplored or something.

This would be outside of current land rules because they wouldn't be a country and therefore could not invade the hexes to accomplish their task. This is what I think Bendore is trying to correct, give the king power to do things other than sit on a throne and condemn people hoping the rest of us will take up arms against them and do things that (hopefully) make RP sense but are outside the current rules a little bit.

Correct me if I am wrong.
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Sadly, Chosen Blood only gets one invasion a turn..

Post by Saris Fey-Branche » 2012-04-26

I have mixed feelings about this.

First, I love what Slindar stands for, both IC and OOC. More war is precisely what we need. The reason people's feelings get so hurt, in my eyes, is primarily due to two factors:
1. There isn't nearly enough of it, so when it happens it is a Big Deal.
2. It has not, in recent times, been done often enough for purely legitimate IC reasons.

That said, if you are going to be in a position of authority in a LARP, there will be consequences for poor attendance. It doesn't matter how much of a Perfectly Legitimate excuse you have. Recently, Murphy had two parents dying of cancer. Even so, he managed to make most events. If he had been absent as much as Slindar has(forgive me- don't know his IRL name), I'm certain that we would have asked him to step down as leader of Chosen Blood. That may seem harsh, but the Country has to keep going. So does Darkon.
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Even then, showing up isn't enough. Slindar needs to actively roleplay and interact with other countries, at day events and otherwise. He needs to strengthen alliances, enforce his will, reward friends and punish his enemies. And yes, you can absolutely do all of that IC. He hasn't been doing this and his reign is suffering as a result.

I waited at the last event until court when most in CB had gone home, hoping that there would be some grand speeches from Slindar full of venom and Kingly Might. At the end of those awards, however... nothing.

I know you'll want to respond to this defensively, but take a step back and consider what I've written here. I absolutely do want Slindar to succeed because I love what he stands for. CB supports him IC and I feel that his views are good for the game. Right, now, however, he is the absolute manifestation of a paper tiger. Grow some teeth or prepare to be replaced.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by TitusV » 2012-04-26

Personally I think the king should be able to invade but not gain additional hexes. Maybe limit his personal invasion force to 8 or something. Hexes that are won become open hexes. Maybe thats too much but I think he should be able to march to war on his own if he wishes. Right now he would have to piggy back on another country's war declaration.

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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-04-26

Bendore had one just like that... Except for the small number of the force.

Maybe I should try and rez this idea and propose it, not just for this king but for the next ones.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Volney » 2012-04-26

Looking over the rulebook it seems to me that there is nothing stopping the King from creating/supplying a Guild or Army, as long as it is not to claim more land for either his country or Tarimstadt.

The Royal Coffers can only be used to pay for defending the Royal City, rebuilding ships, recapturing lost hexes, and paying Nobles and other individuals for services rendered. The Royal Coffers may not be used to supplement his country coffer.
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Such a 'for pay' force sounds like services rendered to me. ;)

Now the problem is there are no current rules on file for a force invading a hex with no intent of claiming it.

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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by TitusV » 2012-04-26

He does have that means of doing so but it still means country X is invading country Y. Not the King of Darkon is going to war with country Y.

In the current rules the king would have to pay a country to declare war on another. What if no countries want to go to war?

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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-26

Then the king would not be able to go to war.

Often times a "king" would call his generals in and they would be the one that look after the troops and lead the troops. basicaly countries would go to war because the King willed it or requested it or paied for it to happen. That is the same exact way in Darkon it works ... rofl :)

So a king that can not in some way get people to go to war for him would be a paper king. And a king that can get people to go along with what he or she proposes for what ever reason would be a king that would have real power. And the rules we currently have allow this to both happen and to be required by the king personally for him to have any power at all.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Calus » 2012-04-27

I like the idea of a king drawing upon his own power instead of relying on his governance to do something. Sure he can win over the people and said countries could fight for him. But he can't go absolutely bannanas when he gets pissed off, which is what a lot of kings would do back in the day. I like the whole idea of him conscripting an army of his own and purging the land of heathens, conquering hexes in the name of the crown, etc. Mad kings are so cool, but I hate them IC.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Saris Fey-Branche » 2012-04-27

I am completely against making up new rules to account for Slindar's inadequacy as a sovereign.

If he were truly involved with Darkon, engaging in politics and applying his charisma but stymied by the current ruleset, I would be in favor of changing it. This is absolutely not the case.

The solution is to man up, show up and make his presence more directly known and felt. It is not in rewriting the Darkon rulebook.
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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-27

I like the idea of the crown having their own land actions. As I would gladly invade anyone the king would ask me to, I do think that using the land actions of other nations will not aid in reaching the activity levels that I would like to see.

If each loyal nation supplied men and the kingsguard supplimented, they should be able to exert the will of the king proper. This allows for more invasions: which is what I am after.

I don't think the kings power should come soley from his being liked. His power should come from being the friggin' king. I would state some stipulation that the kings forces may not take offensive actions should he havee missed 2 or 3 events in a row. Upon returning, his forces may mobilize again, or something of the like.
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Re: Sadly, Chosen Blood only gets one invasion a turn..

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-04-27

Saris Fey-Branche wrote:That said, if you are going to be in a position of authority in a LARP, there will be consequences for poor attendance. It doesn't matter how much of a Perfectly Legitimate excuse you have. Recently, Murphy had two parents dying of cancer. Even so, he managed to make most events. If he had been absent as much as Slindar has(forgive me- don't know his IRL name), I'm certain that we would have asked him to step down as leader of Chosen Blood. That may seem harsh, but the Country has to keep going. So does Darkon.
[I'm glad this didn't happen, on the side, because I have half his charisma and a tenth of his ability to tolerate idiocy]


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Re: A Challange - The Role of the High King

Post by Snudge » 2012-04-27

Let me weigh in as land marshal on this. I firmly believe that the current land rules governing the position of high king and his ability to wage or even fight a war are broken. There are two entirely separate sets of rules for bringing war to the high king that are in direct conflict and also open the realm to a king they could never get rid of under any, and I do mean any circumstance, aside of course from absenteeism.

One is a "Crown War" and can be found on pages 47-49 of the new rule book.
It grants the possibility of two free land actions for everyone involved for the sake of convenience. Despite considering them two separate land actions. Don't believe me? "As the two possible fights in the Crown War are held in succession for convenience, spell points are reset from one fight to the next as if they occurred at separate events." Straight from page 47

Two is "Attacking The Royal City" and can be found on pages 278-280. The pertinent text is here
"To do this an individual or group may choose to attack the Royal City as hexes and assets of the Royal City are open to attack and or capture. For purposes of Defending and Attacking actions both sides in the conflict of the Royal City are considered to be taking an Attack Action for the individuals involved.
To bring war to the High King:
1) Attack as per the normal Land Rules. The High King and his retinue, supporting Knights and their retinues, and supporting lords count as the High King’s surcoated members."

To summarize however here is what the high king may do under the current land rules.
1.) He may fight a crown war but only if one is declared on him by a knight of the realm
2.) He may not invade any hex that is not tarimstadt
3.) He is granted an offensive land action only if a hex of tarimstadt is taken from him by invaders, and it may only be used to retake tarimstadt hexes. Nothing else

And finally here is the exploit that exists due to how the crown war entry on pages 47-49 is written.
The high king may decline to fight in the tournaments to defend his position, should he chose to do so a crown war must be fought. However any knight, at any time can declare a crown war. If that knight loses said crown war another may not be declared for six months. So what you get is that is the king makes 50% or more of events per year(so the NC can't declare him an absentee) he only needs to have a knight declare and lose a crown war and you are left with no way to remove him.

I would recommend that the crown war entry be moved into the land rules. That fighting a crown war now count as your offensive land action, that the requirement to fight two land events back to back for convenience be removed, and that a certain number of supporters be required

Also that the high king be granted an offensive land action. The high king should be able to invade anything he wishes, with whatever forces he can muster. This to be paid for from the royal coffers, or his personal wealth. If he attacks a nation and wins, the invaded hex reverts to a neutral hex and all structures/resources/settlements are lost. If the realm does not support his invasion, they can field with the defenders to stop him
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