Heraldry and Livery

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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Lord Dubh
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Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-10

To replace all references to symbols and surcoats in the rulebook.

There is very little new here in regards to tradition but the wording is altered using proper terminology. There is also a means to allow cross-gamers to come to events while still maintaining tradition. I admit to leaving out the requirements for shields. Personally, I don't care what is on a shield.

Rip it up...then propose it. I think I covered everything but review the current rules and be sure to read the Knights and Nobles section of the rulebook to make sure everything is covered.


Heraldry and Livery

In the Realm of Darkon, heraldry and livery are the methods of identifying countries, knights, lords and veterans. Heraldry is combination of symbols and colors created by a country, knight, lord or veteran that is unique from those already registered and are the main identifying feature of a country, knight, lord or veteran. Livery is an article of clothing such as a tabard, surcoat, or other vestment worn over the head or as a square/ banner off of the belt that has the colors and symbolism based on the heraldry of country, knight or lord. When a country is formed, veteran reaches 15 level, or a knight or lord is created, they must submit their heraldry for review to ensure that it is easily distinguished from an existing country’s, veterans, knights or lords heraldry.

Members of a country must wear the country or a knights livery to count as a member of that country. It is the responsibility of the Costume Marshal to check the livery of players to ensure it is adequate to count as livery. If there is an issue the Magistrate shall mediate.

Veteran characters achieving 15th rank or higher may design personal heraldry and wear it as livery from the belt. If the character has country livery, the country livery must be worn and larger than the personal livery. Any Knight of the Realm or Lord of the Realm may design their own heraldry and wear it as livery in lieu of country livery and still count as a member of a country for that day. Only knights and lords may have personal livery larger and more prominent than country livery.

Players in Darkon who are not members of an established country, or whose country has gone defunct, are called nomads. Nomads may not wear any livery unless they are a veteran, knight or lord wearing personal livery, or from a defunct country wearing the livery of their old country. New players to Darkon may not wear the livery of defunct countries.

Other forms of livery that are permitted are small favors worn from the belt to show affiliation with guilds and awards within Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. Livery for groups that do not exist in Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. or the Realm of Darkon are not permitted except as explained below.

Designs, if any, on shields should be reflective of the country heraldry or personal heraldry of the bearer. However, shields can be blank or have other designs as the player desires. Players may not use heraldry of a country, knight or lord to which they are not affiliated on their shield or person. Shields may not be solid yellow or solid bright green, as they are reserved for magic shields and relics.

Livery rules can be suspended for new players for their first 5 Darkon events, allowing them time to join or form a country or join a retinue in the Realm of Darkon.


With the change of wording here it should also occur in the rules for Knights Retinue:

Knights Retinue
A knight’s retinue is comprised of those who have sworn fealty to a given knight and have become his loyal retainers. The retainer must wear their liege's livery while the wearing of a country livery is up to the knight, retainer and the retainers’ country. If the retainer wears a country's livery, which set of livery takes precedence (i.e., which symbol is larger) is up to the knight, the retainer, and their country. If the knight and the retainer are in the same country, the knight’s livery can count as the country livery. To form a retinue a knight must show the High King that he has a banner and livery for the retainer.

Special Note: Disguise rules may be used per the Darkon Rules of Play to disguise as a generic retainer of a knight though the retinue and the knight may have other means to identify one another unknown to the individual in disguise.



Banners section:

A countries banner must bear its heraldry, be mounted on a pole at least 4' in length (banner poles may never be used as weapons, even if padded) and must be easily and safely portable by a single player. Banners may be captured during roleplay, however they are still considered personal property and therefore must be kept in good condition and returned to their proper owner at the end of each event. Banners must remain attached to their poles and clearly displayed in plain sight at all times.




John M.
Last edited by Lord Dubh on 2012-01-17, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-10

I will be posting to the Magistrate on the 17th so please let me know if there is still something of a concern.
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Lord Valfryn
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Question/clarification

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-10

on nomads:

Players in Darkon who are not members of an established country, or whose country has gone defunct, are called nomads. Nomads may not wear any livery unless they are a veteran, knight or lord wearing personal livery, or from a defunct country wearing the livery of their old country. New players to Darkon may not wear the livery of defunct countries.


here?
Livery is an article of clothing such as a tabard, surcoat, or other vestment worn over the head or as a square/ banner off of the belt that has the colors and symbolism based on the heraldry of country, knight or lord.

Are you saying that nomads cannot wear a surcoat, belt square or vestment that is seen as part of an affiliation? Is this saying theirs cannot be unique? The nomad garb reqs seem wonky to me, or rather vague.
Am I just reading poorly?
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-10

I am not sure what conflict your seeing.

The only nomads that can't wear any symbol are those that are new to the game or have never been in a country.

If that is not clear I will massage it.
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Baroness Keira
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Baroness Keira » 2012-01-11

I need clarification on the shield part. Under these rules, who would be permitted personal heraldry on their shields? Would blank shields be permitted? I think the shield section is very unclear.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-11

Dame Keira wrote:I need clarification on the shield part. Under these rules, who would be permitted personal heraldry on their shields? Would blank shields be permitted? I think the shield section is very unclear.



There is no mention of shields at all. It has been pretty much a consensus that shields should not be restricted in anyway now that PD is available as a means of covering them. Any rules governing shield covers could and would make things difficult for people who use PD.
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TitusV
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by TitusV » 2012-01-11

I'm thinking we should explicitly state that shields do not have requirements because 5 years from now we will have the same argument.

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Lord Dubh
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-11

TitusV wrote:I'm thinking we should explicitly state that shields do not have requirements because 5 years from now we will have the same argument.


I was wrong, shields are mentioned:

Designs, if any, on shields should be reflective of the country heraldry or personal heraldry of the bearer. However, shields can be blank or have other designs as the player desires. Players may not use heraldry of a country, knight or lord to which they are not affiliated on their shield or person.


Is that not adequate?
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-11

Yea, to avoid subterfuge. I would dare say we should "suggest" but not require a shield that is not of a neutral aesthetic to match the livery of its bearer, as a courtesy to other players and elders.

If I were to have a big blank yellow shield, elders /players may easily confuse me as someone else, though I am within the rules of the game.
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-14

Well, it should definitely say that shields can't be yellow or bright green as they are reserved for other types of shields...
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-15

I thought WAAAAAGH has some yellow shields, as does Laconia?
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Prince Andrick
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-01-15

Simply add a line that says " except a shield may not be plain yellow or green, as these colors are reserved for the magic shield and the Shield of Deflection, respectively." Done.
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-15

Shields of yellow or green require heraldry as to not be confused with magic shields or relics.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-01-17

Please co-sign.
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Alzarahn
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-01-17

Why not instead of restricting the colors, you just make the relics and magic shields more obvious? Put a big bold letter on them. M = Magic, D = Deflection, viola.

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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Braxus » 2012-01-18

i co sign
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-18

Cosign
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Sir Gwydion
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-02-01

Alzarahn wrote:Why not instead of restricting the colors, you just make the relics and magic shields more obvious? Put a big bold letter on them. M = Magic, D = Deflection, viola.


Do you really want letters on people's shields? I don't.
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-02-01

I am making a new PD Shield of Deflection right now. There will be no confusion as to what it is, and it will not in any way monopolize the color "bright green" or be confused with other green shields, whether they bear livery or not. Plus, there is just 1 of it.

So any confusion/ contention in this matter involves mainly yellow magic shields.
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Alzarahn
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-02-01

It doesn't have to be a letter. It could be a symbol, just something that designates the magic or deflection property. The point is to not reserve a whole color.

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Lord Dubh
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-01

Alzarahn wrote:It doesn't have to be a letter. It could be a symbol, just something that designates the magic or deflection property. The point is to not reserve a whole color.


The colors are already reserved. This is not a change.

You are not permitted to make a shield with a bright green cover, and all yellow cover shields are seen as magic shields which only mages can use.
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Alzarahn
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-02-01

I understand the colors are currently reserved. I'm talking about opening them up. I'm generally against things that stifle creativity. Someone might want to make a really cool green tree shield, or maybe a yellow sun, just for example.

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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Wulfen Freki » 2012-02-01

The colors are reserved for very specific reasons and uses to aide in quick idenitification and to cut down on confusion.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-02

While I am taking Senate comments into consideration does anyone feel that we should be using historical terminology?

For example, what we have called a personal symbol is historically called ARMS. I have used heraldry in the proposal but can easily change the wording. Does the proposal make it clear that the intent is for each unit, veteran, lord and knight is to have a unique symbol and or colors from other units, veterans, lords and knights??

Is there anything at all that is not clear? I am sure you understand the intent but we really must avoid confusion once this is passed.

Also - do we want to regulate and not allow new arms/heraldry from being too similar to defunct countries??
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Heraldry and Livery

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-02-03

I think that shouldn't be an issue. If it really mattered, it would be seen on the field, still . People would likely have their own reason for using a heraldry/ livery, and active players/countries should have priority over long defunct/inactive countries/players. Imho.

Not like we should expect everyone to research all the defunct character names and whatnot.... there's more than one bob in the world. If bob really doesn't like someone using the name he's got... well he can always kill all the other bobs....
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