Armor Changes - Inox

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PadreCaedes
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-03-03

Look here...if clerics end up being given white weapons, imma keep a yellow stabby on it. There's no reason a cleric shouldn't be able to stick someone on the chest with the blunt end of a sword.

Let's be honest...giving clerics white is just silly. It defeats the whole concept of "clerics only use blunt".
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-03-03

PadreCaedes wrote:Look here...if clerics end up being given white weapons, imma keep a yellow stabby on it. There's no reason a cleric shouldn't be able to stick someone on the chest with the blunt end of a sword.

Let's be honest...giving clerics white is just silly. It defeats the whole concept of "clerics only use blunt".



Um, what does this have to do with this proposal? This doesn't change who can use any weapons, it just simplifies the hit system.
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PadreCaedes
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Re: Simplified Further...?

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-03-03

HRH Malkin wrote:Why not make chained weapons the only yellow weapons... all non-chained one handers are white.

All the silly stuff about bars vs. sword quillions a club and a morning star.
.. blah blah... all that nonsense would be done with!

As far as clerics go...Let them use white no-stabby


Sarcasm to go with yet more sarcasm.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by fingers630 » 2012-03-04

hehe blame Malkin, hebrought it up.

clerics not using white or red weapons because of the old "may not draw blood with edged weapons" d&d reasoning was always bunk. i cannot cut you with this blade, however i may bash your skull in with a morning star...silliness.

(give clerics white swords and reduce shield size to 36"!!)
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-03-04

F that.
first of all, clerics are gnarly powerful. without adding white damage : dropping shield size barely balances them (not at all).

This all hardly compares to the "templar" class proposed that was way less powerful than clerics wielding white damage, in plate, with 36" shields....
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by fingers630 » 2012-03-05

shhh, I was springboarding this into a "well a good compromise would be a TEMPLAR class"....
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-03-05

This proposal has alot of merit. If it works well, voila, we made something more simple and intuitive.

IMO the prop itself should be for a non-binding playtest period. It would be silly to not playtest the hell out of new hit rules first. Then if we prove that it works and it is better, no one will have issue with passing it into rule.

I don't see a good ending otherwise. Senate will either shoot it down quickly, which is most likely to happen. Or we'll pass into the rules a new hit system we never even tested...

Hopefully there is enough flexibility in the Senate process to consider this when the already submitted prop is discussed.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by HRH Malkin » 2012-03-14

I wasn't being sarcasic there. I meant it.

The idea is that white is changed from on hand slicing to one hand non-chained... So you would basically have one hand non-chain (white), two hand swinging (black), stabbing (red) and chained weapons (yellow).

The idea of this is to get rid of the concept of "flats" which is altogether impossible to regulate in a fight anyway...plus a lot of other games use cylindrical weapons as swords... for this very reason.

If you get rid of the idea of flats... as a cleric you can still use a club, mace, or whatever blunt instrument you like... it's just now going to count as a white hit... and only chained weapons will count as yellow. It makes it much easier to teach such a hit system. (i.e., this simplifies the hit system even further).

As far as this comment goes: [Let's be honest...giving clerics white is just silly. It defeats the whole concept of "clerics only use blunt".]

The concept of Clerics only using blunt instruments is a D&D archetype... if you like, you can still play it by making a weapon that is OBVIOSULY a mace. But in reality, who cares if some cleric uses a sword? The crusades were filled with sowrd toting religious warriors (i.e., clerics).

The truth is, it's not about making clerics MORE powerful... Almost every cleric in the game uses a chained weapon... because they get around sheilds and can kill to an unarmored head. This rule would balance the weapon type vs. the class. Whilst using a chained weapon, it is impossible to advance past a light to a limb... but only with chained weapons... Thusly a mace will kill someone just as well as a short sword. So the play balance is still there. Since most clerics will continue to use a flail anyway, becuase it still has all its advantages.

So no... it wasn't sarcasm to go with sarcasm... I don't know why anyone would think that. The rationale simplifies the concept even further. Isn't that what everyone is advocating for... Simplicity?

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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-03-14

Sir Caetrel wrote:This proposal has alot of merit. If it works well, voila, we made something more simple and intuitive.

IMO the prop itself should be for a non-binding playtest period. It would be silly to not playtest the hell out of new hit rules first. Then if we prove that it works and it is better, no one will have issue with passing it into rule.

I don't see a good ending otherwise. Senate will either shoot it down quickly, which is most likely to happen. Or we'll pass into the rules a new hit system we never even tested...

Hopefully there is enough flexibility in the Senate process to consider this when the already submitted prop is discussed.


We have play tested rules before, don't need special dispensation from the Senate so long as the host group is ok with it...

Want to play test it, pick some dates YOU will be eldering (and anyone else wanting to play test) and I will even put it on the schedule. People will show up to the event regardless of what is going on....

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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-03-14

A date before the prop gets discussed, and another date in between discussion and voting, would be great. I am not sure on the Senate schedule though.

Not to blow work off onto anyone else, but I'd think the people who are major proponents of this would be the ones interested in getting a play test going. I'll help elder, sure.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-03-15

I like malkin's suggestion of all 1h being white and only chained being yellow. Simple, effective and has it's own balance. I take most nonchained yellow hits as white anyway.

Still want to see clerics as a chain class, but that's another discussion.

As to the playtest: unless we do it for a few consecutive events, I feel like we wont get the full attention of the players. And we will be able to ensure that even a player that skips a few events from time to time gets at least one day of playtest.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by fingers630 » 2012-03-15

Yup I like it. Throw in 36 inch max shield size or AR 2 as max ac and I think it would be a fair trade off. Hell even allow grandfathered plate to count as AR 2. I mean people aren't supposed to be metagaming what armor hits their opponent has anyway right? Wear the plate, wear an AR 2 armband, count AR 2 hits. Profit.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-04-17

I think that playtesting has its merits, but mostly for popularity-related questions. I mean, what possible results could you expect from a play test? "I liked it because <insert colorful anecdote>" or "I didn't like it because <insert same colorful anecdote>" are the two options you get.

Foregoing someone actually coming up with a measure for what you really want to know, I think that playtesting would not be useful in this context.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-17

Sir Gwydion wrote:I think that playtesting has its merits, but mostly for popularity-related questions. I mean, what possible results could you expect from a play test? "I liked it because <insert colorful anecdote>" or "I didn't like it because <insert same colorful anecdote>" are the two options you get.

Foregoing someone actually coming up with a measure for what you really want to know, I think that playtesting would not be useful in this context.

The biggest opposition to this last time it was brought up was by vets saying they were pretty sure they couldn't effectively learn a new hit system. If we could play test it and they could follow it, then that argument would be moot.

But then again, what's to stop those people from simply saying they were confused by it and it was hard to change after playing for 20+ years if they really were simply against the proposal? Other than a sense of fairness or honor... Not everybody in the world has those.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-17

Its not terribly hard.
Step 1. "What armor do I wear?"
Step 2. Learn those hits
Step 3. Hit people that are not you until they drop.
Step 4. Profit.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-17

step 2? naw
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-17

My interests in playtesting would be to determine...

1. If plate soaking an extra white/ yellow is too much.

2. If Black taking AC3 limbs out quicker is too much.

3. If this system would benefit from/ need to be "first hit through armor is always a light wound".

It's not always about gauging popularity. I really feel as though there are balance issues to work out. I also think without establishing the system's merits it doesn't have a snowball's chance in Senate.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-04-18

Sir Caetrel wrote:My interests in playtesting would be to determine...

1. If plate soaking an extra white/ yellow is too much.

2. If Black taking AC3 limbs out quicker is too much.

3. If this system would benefit from/ need to be "first hit through armor is always a light wound".

It's not always about gauging popularity. I really feel as though there are balance issues to work out. I also think without establishing the system's merits it doesn't have a snowball's chance in Senate.


I can understand wanting to get this information. It would be very valuable.

What data could you glean from "playtesting" that would support or reject any of the claims above?
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-18

Write up EXACTLY what you want play tested. Nothing can be done without a definitive rule proposal, lots of advance notice, distrobution to the countries and several consecutive events using the rules to be tested.
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Sir Gwydion
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-04-18

Lord Dubh wrote:Write up EXACTLY what you want play tested. Nothing can be done without a definitive rule proposal, lots of advance notice, distrobution to the countries and several consecutive events using the rules to be tested.


Which is why I think it would be preferred to simply vote on the rules rather than potentially waste everyone's time playtesting them over a 6-month + period.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Taggart MacBannion » 2012-04-18

It's a big change that has a lot of people on the fence. If you just vote on them, I'm betting you'll get a no when the option to playtest them is available.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-18

I think playtesting is a great idea. It'll prove either way if vets can adjust to the new rules. Either they can do it or they can't. If they can't, then we know this is a bad idea and it won't end up going through senate. If they can adjust, then it that silences that part of the opposition. Play testing seems like the right idea.

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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-04-19

All I'm saying is that you're trying to set up an experiment where you can't actually measure anything. Your intent is great, but how will you actually determine whether vets are capable of adjusting? The way playtesting has worked in the past for us is we run a playtest, then some people whine. Others say "Stop whining" then someone with a bigger ego comes along and forces his decision down everyone's throat.

I don't see playtesting helping this situation.

If you insist on playtesting, I recommend building it into the proposal like we did for Ravenswrath. Propose the armor changes carte blanche. Then propose a second vote in the event that the first fails that causes the proposal to go into effect for a set period of time (3 months to a year) at which time it will be automatically repealed if it does not pass a second vote.

That way it's the rule. It's not voluntary. People will either adjust or they will be in violation of the rule. Then, it's not a popularity contest anymore when it comes to the second round of voting. It's the normal course of rules changes through Senate.

At any rate, Inox. Let me know when you put this in to senate. I'll lend my ego towards this cause because I think that having a simpler hit system would make this game a lot better.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-04-19

For what it's worth, when this goes to senate I'll vote yes on it as well. I believe that a simpler system will benefit the club as a whole by making it not so daunting for new people to grasp the armor system. That outweighs any negatives that I can see.
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Re: Armor Changes - Inox

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-19

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Asking too much here, people may have to be able to count to four... and not use all the complicated "if-then" statements in our current system.
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