Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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Sir Gwydion
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-08-31

Right. I was saying that we have a tradition of stuff hanging around from the dawn of time, and used the land map as an example.

If you don't want to touch the land map, how does the logic change when you examine individual players?
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-08-31

As a preface, I would like to say that my comprehension has been shoddy the past few days ( overmedicated sinus infection), so I would like to appologize for misenterpreting your last post, Eric. It still is a valid discussion, so I will continue to answer you.

How does a game mechanic change effect specific player characters?
If we were to change how player character skills and abilities worked, our characters would be blissfully unaware much like how our 1st ed Dnd chars were when they translated to 2nd. OOC, we would have the ability to augment/ rebuild our class system for a better massive combat game while still allowing for magic, enchantments, and innate abilities (skill classes). I do not want to creat an "all stick game", because that isn't what darkon is. I would like darkon to stay a heavy combat RP driven wargame, I just feel our current combat and combat magic mechanics do not reflect the scope of our club currently.

So as an example:
I would like to see armor take less hits. Would I know the difference in the battles? Yes, Would lord Valfryn? No, because it has shifted across the board. as to magic: how did the game RP the loss of timestop? if we eliminated certain spells, or augmented them... it would be up to the player to decide how he deals with the changes "ICN. I still cant get over the fact that the game doesnt have an official stance on how we keep getting up after dying, as nigh immortals.... but hey.

not sure if this sums anything up, or were you looking for more specifics on how I wanted to directly effect the PC classes, because that will be a long long post.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-09-05

fingers630 wrote:start over! woo hoo! at lvl 45 I can cast Cure Light Wounds again!

everyone would play fighters, we could change the name to Dag, and Thrush would be happy =P


:o Dick. Not true at all. Not even close. I love Darkon. You realize in the last decade I've been to 15 Dag events, 10 of which were Ragnarok? I don't know why you say things like that... I like all games. That being said, I do wish Darkon cared more about playing Darkon, less about socializing and power gaming.

The only thing that has really poorly effected our game play, is spell ball magic. As we have discussed ad nauseum in many threads, it is now way too easy for 3 mages to kill an entire army of fighters. This is not how Darkon should be or was in the past. MAges were to be a special part of the force, not THE force...I should never be able to be kept from participating in the game by 1 class alone. We could indeed restructure the character levels, but really, giving more abilities is def not the way to do it! Scale back armor hits, and scale back (somehow limit) all AOE magics...

Valfryn is spot on, we need to take * away, not hand out more dumb stuff... Like Fingers said, making more and more abilities has killed games. Just like campouts, don't make a scenario so complicated it can't be won in real life... No one will have fun except the person who came up with it.

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-09-05

Murph, start a new thread and we can focus on the yours and Sebs points.

I was chatting with some of us at renfaire and thought some of the point are worth looking into.

On the topic... There doesn't need to be any more added to the classes. You top out, use what you got and be happy.
Here is a crazy idea... One that I heard before, take away fireball aoe on battle days or at lvlX mages get aoe (yeah,I know... That will confuse or make someone think an extra second is battle) but that would make a step towards what Seb is talking about.

Other idea of higher lvl stuff (not that agree with the idea)
Fighter- all over ac3 at level 50. Original idea of Seb and Knox I think.
Cleric- can use single handed weapon of his god, but loses tower shields when they do.
Mages- can call one humanoid monster from monster chart. Proxy must be other country member, and dead. No giants, dragons or undead. Adventure only and only one at a time. 5 spell points.
Thief- skilled pickpocket, must tell elder that he is using this skill before hand. Thief picks one person, just touches them. And walks away alive. All items on target are now to be given to the thief. Make lvl 50. Once a day.

That's just a few, others I came up with are either too lame or too overpowered.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-09-06

Believe it or not, I'm not anti AOE per se on magic. It's just too easy to do it too often.

Maybe make a contact fireball one spell point, and an AOE fire ball 10 spell points?

But fundamentally, you can, at high levels, cast too many spell balls too quickly. It is crazy. I realized this at the last Eastern shore campout in the tunnel battle... It absolutely boggled my mind how many fireballs and how fast one high level mage can throw them, and this was a mage who uses a strike counter to ensure he counts spell points, so there was no cheating. But he and one spear man pretty much WERE the other team's force. You put 2 of them on that team (and there are MANY more high level mages now than there have ever been) and they can just about rain down AOE fireballs at will for HOURS. Just make it A LOT more words and I'd shut up...

I'm kinda just thinking out loud here, btw... Please don't think I'm pursuing any of this yet, I just want to discuss it levelheadedly.

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-09-06

Your telling me... I went to war with that guy and apprentice Mage, plus his plate armored country. Have the first battle, game plan changed to not let them have 10sec to cast their spells.

I have said before in posts about fireball (and let's be honest, that is the only real problem) that this spell is far too cheap cost wise. Low level direct hit fire balls and higher lvl fireball with aoe for more points.
I remember tues practices when James was only allowed to hit people in the head to kill them. And he excelled in doing it.

But again, I have drove this bus off topic.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-09-06

He truley is a menace with those things... lol

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Ericson » 2012-09-07

Warlordcort wrote:Fighter- all over ac3 at level 50. Original idea of Seb and Knox I think.


Something similar, level 50 fighter gains Berserker ability. Light wounds do not cause a fighter to loose use of that limb, like a bandage automatically applied to any limb.

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-09-07

I can dig it...

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-09-07

I have been thinking a lot about this ...

Couple of facts a player with no experience can come out 5 times and become a 2nd rank just about anything.

At 1st rank there are a few cool abilities and spells but nothing groundbreaking.

so .... why not let any character that is at level 50 have the ability to "train" under a level 50 in another class so that they gain 1st rank in that ability with a few restrictions... this will make higher level players be able to use thier skills to train others... it will let those who are level 50 and beyond gain more abilities.... but nothing earthshattering...

example :

Any character that becomes level 50 has the ability to train others in thier class.
Any character that becomes level 50 can be trained by another to learn thier class but only 1 person can be actually learning at one time.
It is up to indivual people who they will train and if they will charge anything for the service.
At every level 50 increment you will have the ability to learn a new class at 1st rank so ... level 50 level 100 level 150 ect...but at all times you may not use any abilities till you meet the requirements for being taught

to learn a new class you have to have another player agree to teach you who is over level 50 in that class
someone who is over level 100 can teach two people at one time instead of one
to learn a new class you must check in to the day event in the class you are over level 50 in and you must have your teacher sign in with you and sign and date your "learning sash" next to thier signature a EB member will also sign and date the sash as a witness. the sash which is a 1x1 cloth belt sash in (insert color here) which has a symbol of the class you are learning on it. You must fight alongside the person you are learning from for that day any land actions you do has to be with your teacher. You can only learn one class a day and only have one teacher at a time. Once you have 6 different event dates signed and completed on the sash you can then use what you have learned - you must wear the sash to use the abilities going forward.

these are the classes you can be taught and the abilities that are gained with each class

Fighter: you get the ability to learn one weapon that your class would not normally allow - the weapon type must be Pictured on the front of the sash and the name of the weapon type written on the back

Ranger: you gain the ability of tracking (which will be up to the event elder to determine effectiviness) and gain the ability to cast "light" same as a ranger of 1st rank

Cleric: you gain the ability to cast cure light wounds and the spell light as a 1st rank cleric

Druid: you gain the ability to feign death and cast light as a 1st rank druid

Mage: you gain the ability to cast mend and light as a 1st rank mage

Theif: you gain the looting skill as per a thief of 1st rank

Assassin: you gain the ability of Disguise as a 1st rank assassin

Monk: you gain the ability of missle diflection as a 1st rank monk

Cavalier: you gain the ability of Immunity to disease and can cure light (1 minute mediatation) as per a 1st rank Cavalier

Warrior Mage: you gain the ability to use items usable only to mages including scrolls written by others as a 1st rank warrior mage

In any case where you have an ability that would cost a spell point you will only be able to use the ability 10 times a day and in addition you will need the spell requirements or spell materials that the class you learned would have to have to cast the spell or use the ability. sash / spell component / ect...

anyway this is what I was thinking... it would add a depth to our classes - would allow high level players to teach others thier trade without them actually becoming that trade ... it would allow people to "play" a cavalier in character and have some advantage by it ect ... I think some of these abilities are more powerful then others but when you think they are only a portion what a player would get by actually being the class - they have no drawbacks or requirements other then being taught - and it might spur some real roleplaying

I think only 1 person is level 150 ... so that means most in the game that have been doing it over 20 years can still only have some minor abilities added to what they can do and if they are assinated they still loose all abilities that character has learned including the abilities gained by being taught after level 50

nothing is just given to someone and it still must be "learned" people would just have a way to now learn these minor things...

this is a basic thought... it can be modified as needed and is intended as a example... thank you for looking:)
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Ericson » 2012-09-10

So Lvl 50 characters gain the Apprenticeship ability. Which allows them to teach someone in their country or retinue the 1st level abilities of their own class. Interesting....

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-09-10

Lord Cailen Sendor wrote:I have been thinking a lot about this ...

Couple of facts a player with no experience can come out 5 times and become a 2nd rank just about anything.

At 1st rank there are a few cool abilities and spells but nothing groundbreaking.

so .... why not let any character that is at level 50 have the ability to "train" under a level 50 in another class so that they gain 1st rank in that ability with a few restrictions... this will make higher level players be able to use thier skills to train others... it will let those who are level 50 and beyond gain more abilities.... but nothing earthshattering...

example :

Any character that becomes level 50 has the ability to train others in thier class.
Any character that becomes level 50 can be trained by another to learn thier class but only 1 person can be actually learning at one time.
It is up to indivual people who they will train and if they will charge anything for the service.
At every level 50 increment you will have the ability to learn a new class at 1st rank so ... level 50 level 100 level 150 ect...but at all times you may not use any abilities till you meet the requirements for being taught

to learn a new class you have to have another player agree to teach you who is over level 50 in that class
someone who is over level 100 can teach two people at one time instead of one
to learn a new class you must check in to the day event in the class you are over level 50 in and you must have your teacher sign in with you and sign and date your "learning sash" next to thier signature a EB member will also sign and date the sash as a witness. the sash which is a 1x1 cloth belt sash in (insert color here) which has a symbol of the class you are learning on it. You must fight alongside the person you are learning from for that day any land actions you do has to be with your teacher. You can only learn one class a day and only have one teacher at a time. Once you have 6 different event dates signed and completed on the sash you can then use what you have learned - you must wear the sash to use the abilities going forward.

these are the classes you can be taught and the abilities that are gained with each class

Fighter: you get the ability to learn one weapon that your class would not normally allow - the weapon type must be Pictured on the front of the sash and the name of the weapon type written on the back

Ranger: you gain the ability of tracking (which will be up to the event elder to determine effectiviness) and gain the ability to cast "light" same as a ranger of 1st rank

Cleric: you gain the ability to cast cure light wounds and the spell light as a 1st rank cleric

Druid: you gain the ability to feign death and cast light as a 1st rank druid

Mage: you gain the ability to cast mend and light as a 1st rank mage

Theif: you gain the looting skill as per a thief of 1st rank

Assassin: you gain the ability of Disguise as a 1st rank assassin

Monk: you gain the ability of missle diflection as a 1st rank monk

Cavalier: you gain the ability of Immunity to disease and can cure light (1 minute mediatation) as per a 1st rank Cavalier

Warrior Mage: you gain the ability to use items usable only to mages including scrolls written by others as a 1st rank warrior mage

In any case where you have an ability that would cost a spell point you will only be able to use the ability 10 times a day and in addition you will need the spell requirements or spell materials that the class you learned would have to have to cast the spell or use the ability. sash / spell component / ect...

anyway this is what I was thinking... it would add a depth to our classes - would allow high level players to teach others thier trade without them actually becoming that trade ... it would allow people to "play" a cavalier in character and have some advantage by it ect ... I think some of these abilities are more powerful then others but when you think they are only a portion what a player would get by actually being the class - they have no drawbacks or requirements other then being taught - and it might spur some real roleplaying

I think only 1 person is level 150 ... so that means most in the game that have been doing it over 20 years can still only have some minor abilities added to what they can do and if they are assinated they still loose all abilities that character has learned including the abilities gained by being taught after level 50

nothing is just given to someone and it still must be "learned" people would just have a way to now learn these minor things...

this is a basic thought... it can be modified as needed and is intended as a example... thank you for looking:)

I can see the warrior mage and assassin ones being waaaaay OP.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-09-10

Apprenticeship ability would allow anyone of the required level to train anyone in the game also of a level able to learn - it would not be restricted by country or by retinue but some people unlike me only train thier own :) the agreement is between the parties it could be for free it could be for a reason or a pledge or from roleplaying standpoint they just only are or are not willing to train people its all up to them.

the assassin disguise skill could be abused - but then again that would maby push others to actually read the rules :) there are ways using gestures or other non public identification modes up to and including pass words and handshakes to identify those who are supposed to be in your own group if you take the time to set up those things to protect yourself and your country or retinue to me it would bring more roleplaying in a cool way and it is a game we play :)

the ability to use mage items including scrolls would make writing scrolls more valueable - make people have more fun trying to actually use darkon gold for something and I do not think the wand of gartan is overpowering :)

or if those specific skills/abilities would cause problems then w could pick other skills from those classes to use I just thought it would be cool and not overpowering and give specific distinctions to those 2 classes ... do we even have a warrior mage over level 50 yet ? or the ability to have one in the next 3-4 years over level 50 :)

this gives minor abilities to people that play one class to the point they have uber levels in it - any of these players could chose to have a 1st level anything tommorow and it allows within that primary class the ability to tweek it the way you want to roleplay a fighter cavileer that has minor ability in the second class but does not have to obtain noble status ... or a mage that has trained to use a flail for some arcane use remember at most someone might have 2 minor abilities after playing the same class for 20+ years :) to me that seems resonable they still have to "learn" it and even the monk deflect ability they still have to actually block that incoming missle :)

is this something that we should discuss?

is it unreasonable?

do you think it would work and at the same time promote roleplaying?

love to hear what everyone thinks :)
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-09-10

I stand by what I said, we need to remove/limit some things BEFORE we start adding MORE.

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-09-10

I stand by him standing by what he said.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-09-11

Which may have actually been me standing by what someone else, maybe even you, said...

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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-09-11

I have to say I agree with Thrush and Valfryn. Really what I'd like to see is something I did years ago after another spat of major rule changes, have none at all next year. Let everyone get used to all the changes made over the past few years. If, and that is a big if, I run for magistrate again next year my platform would be simple : no rule changes for the year with the exception of safety issues and the chapters work, cuz chapters will not effect the way we play the game. I don't think any part of Darkon is so broken we could not live with it for a year.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Inox » 2012-09-12

I don't feel we should ever stop rule changes. Some of the periods of Darkon's greatest activity and growth were during times when the most changed. Above all else, Darkon's always been a living tradition.

That said, we need to dial back the AoE power somehow. The simple facts remain:

-Mages originally had NO armor of any kind (no headband *skin armor), making them FAR easier to kill (especially with missile weapons, which was the primary method)

-Spells originally had no reduction, making Fireball take twice as long to cast as it does now

-Fights were much smaller, making it harder to cast in general (if not impossible in many cases)

-On Adventures/Campouts, Mages can Pouch spells (this was not in Darkon originally)

-We developed boat, bridge, and fortification rules & scenarios that create "fish in a barrel" situations

-Many more people play Mages now that the above have changed, which exacerbates the impact

I like Cailen's idea re: apprenticeships, but I am leery of the power some could bring.

Here is what I might suggest as a list. All of these have limited battlefield impact, but add flavor.

Fighter: Various options. Clerics can get Dagger by losing attack spells. If already allowed Black, get shieldbreaking by giving up one color. Get Missile weapons use unrestricted by giving up one color (Monks, Mages, Cavaliers). Thoughts/more ideas welcome.

Ranger: 'Light', ability to move on hexes as a Ranger/Druid, same RP skills as a Ranger (can avoid getting lost when the party is told that a Ranger is needed to find their way through the woods, can pass through overgrown areas, etc.).

Cleric: 'Light', Hospice training

Druid: 'Light', ability to move on hexes as a Ranger/Druid, considered to have RP knowledge of the natural world (identifying plants, animals, etc.), immune to Nature Love (as all 1st level Druids are)

Mage: 'Light', 'Detect Magic', use all Mage items EXCEPT scrolls (so, basically, the Wand of Gartan & any special item that an Adventure host may decide to make up for a given event).

Thief: 'Open Locks' and 'Find/Remove Traps' as a Thief of 1/2 your Rank

Assassin: 'Detect Disguise' at 1/2 your Rank

Monk: 'Light', 'Immunity to Disease'

Cavalier: 'Light', 'Immunity to Disease'

Warrior Mage: As Mage
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by fingers630 » 2012-09-12

In a perfect world, classes would be guidelines, and everyone could customize their characters. I wouldnt need to have 4 characters named Fingers, I could just combine my levels and play 1 character, with various abilities. Id gladly give up some to use others. But in a realistic note, I realize how hard this would be to control.

While I like to believe people wouldnt cheat, Im sure it would happen. Even if you carried around a "character sheet" with you.

I am not 100% change if something improves the game. I am against change just for changes sake however. Not accusing anyone of that just stating.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-09-12

we can easily make it so mages cant cast aoe for 5 or whatever minutes after they have removed their "skin spells" kinda like assassins in disguise, using abilities.
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Re: Level 20/25 Abilities Discussion

Post by Inox » 2012-09-13

I like that. I have long said that it's not about how many different things you can do, it's which things you can do simultaneously.

Obviously anyone with the credits can play a Fighter in plate one day, and a Fireballing Mage next event.

Limiting overpowering synergies while maximizing variety and flavor is the key to having a system that's both balanced and interesting.
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