Expanding the Land Map

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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by President » 2012-10-10

I think this is a good idea, giving notice so people can re-position ships.

As for map configuration why not make it a separate map and go EAST of our current one. Make a single land mass that is the size of our current map (the land and inner sea combined) and have it set about 6 travel days away from the East coast of the current map.

By creating a separate map you have a third axis to work with so people could put 1,XX,67 to indicate the current map and 2,F,63 for the second map.

Then you don't have to do anything to the old map.


Also, there is not need to say a new landmass is rising...simply say a new continent has been discovered and the High King is sponsoring a RACE, all nations are invited to send 1 ship to harbor near Tarimstadt and launch on a specific date to the destination of their choice.

I do think it would be good to have NPC nations but not sure how that would work....would require something similar to the Zombie plot, we would need volunteers to be the NPCs when a Darkon country invaded.

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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-10-10

the idea of islands is seperate from any changes in the map ... they are not permanant they are for roleplaying only I could have said floating clouds or a underground chamber or a extradinmensional portal the point being to involve a class to make it happen then have events like the casting event which could be held at a campout which would require at least x amount of mages to accomplish ect ... really we could make the whole thing extreemly cool for everyone!
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by President » 2012-10-10

Lord Cailen Sendor wrote:the idea of islands is seperate from any changes in the map ... they are not permanant they are for roleplaying only I could have said floating clouds or a underground chamber or a extradinmensional portal the point being to involve a class to make it happen then have events like the casting event which could be held at a campout which would require at least x amount of mages to accomplish ect ... really we could make the whole thing extreemly cool for everyone!


Thanks, but not sure how this applies to this topic other than to point our your idea is unrelated??

If the Senate went for your islands idea for wars there is plenty of water between the new and old land masses for that to occur.

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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-10-10

Pat I feel the prez wasn't speaking of your idea....

@prez- great idea.
@Potter- would this be easier on the database?

All countries that want to explore the "new" conteinent. Are placed at the edge of the map. And start with 6 movement points.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-10

One of the primary reasons to expand the land map is to meet the needs of new countries. I would suggest that part of your land expansion be reserved for new countries for a specified period of time (1 year? 2? etc).
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by President » 2012-10-10

If the land mass is large enough, land for new countries is a non-issue. It takes a while for a country to land search a any significant amount and since a country can only do one land action if the country is at war they can't search.

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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-10

And we can always continue to expand as needed. Fair enough.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-10-10

yes my island idea is unrelated with anything dealing with the map discussion :) sorry for not being clear
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-10

I posted this once, but the forums ate it, so here we go again.

Snudge wants this to be easy on a LM, and I don't blame him. Others, like myself and Faleris, have voiced concern that it won't be fair to everybody if we add in one direction. And yet others (myself included - and I might be biased) are worried about messing with the histories of "frozen wasteland" countries.

I can fix all of this in one proposal. The ONLY problem mine causes is that it will be difficult to expand later.

Perhaps we've only lived on one side of the world until now. Maybe some unseen fog has kept us from going past the ends of our known world... Well, the fog has lifted and we now realize that beyond the great barrier is an entire half of the world. Our world is really round!

We add to the top of the map like Snudge says is easiest. In the ocean up north of our current land and the new land we put a small ice/snow landmass. This is now our north pole. The bottom of our current map wraps to the top of the new one (needn't actually connect it on a map, but have a chart of what hex connects to what), and the sides of our current map connect to the sides of the newer map. This means we will have expanded in all directions, giving everybody a fair shot. This doesn't ruin the frozen north history of the game. This makes it easy on Snudge or whatever LM has to deal with it, as the numbers just continue (which he says isn't difficult) -the only thing it adds to his job is a list of what hexes connect to what, which is still an easier job than what some of the other ideas have been.

It's 1492 in Darkon, folks. (And yes, I know that isn't the first time anybody realized the world wasn't flat.)

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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-10

Regarding country histories...

We must keep in mind the theory of "The Known World". Declaring one's country as the farthest in any cardinal direction is subject to prospective and change. A country may be 'the farthest to the west' until new lands are discovered. Just as Valdimar was the farthest north with only frost giants living above them... until another country was placed farther north; in effect 'new lands were discovered'. For all intents and purposes; all countries would need to add a new event on their timelines "new lands were discovered to the ___". This won't invalidate that; at one time, said country was 'farthest to the ___'... but it would change that fact going forward.

Just a thought on how to manage land map expansion while maintaining country histories.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-10-10

Sorry I haven't read all the last post (all the way through)

Or we can make the new land mass the other side of the sheet.
We are not round... But still flat. North is still north, west meets east on the other side of the page and so forth.
What do you guys think of that. Light work on LM.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Snudge » 2012-10-10

I'm gonna do a fast pro and con list for each idea just so everyone can get a feel for things. This is off the top of my head, the list might be incomplete

My personal preference is to expand the map north, but I have no problem with creating a second map file.
Also we need to think about what sort of land masses we as a club would want, unless everyone wants to defer to the land marshal's judgement.

1.) Expanding the map north
Pros
-Keeps our current file structure intact (two databases and the map)
-Least amount of work for the land marshal
-Least cost to the club

Cons
-May fly in the face of country histories
-It is located in the north, southern countries would have the farthest travel.

2.)Creating a second land map
Pros
-Its an entirely new map to play with!
-It can be placed/designed so as not to fly in the face of country histories

Cons
-greatest possible work for the land marshal'
-highest cost for the club
-changes our current file structure (three databases, two maps)


Based on my thoughts, expansion north is the better choice. Though again I'm not opposed to a second map.
To relate to costs, current map is 3x3 and I've only had to submit 1 expense receipt to the treasurer for paper and ink. Expanding it to 4x3 isn't going to drive up our costs that much, but adding another 3x3 map to print will effectively double our costs.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by jayjay » 2012-10-10

the map projection that is used could also solve the going 'up' issue. we could just go with a map projection that place the north pole as the center point of the map. that would set the current 'north' most countries as north most and then we'd go 'south' as we keep going up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_ ... projection the UN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peirce_qui ... projection
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-10

jayjay wrote:the map projection that is used could also solve the going 'up' issue. we could just go with a map projection that place the north pole as the center point of the map. that would set the current 'north' most countries as north most and then we'd go 'south' as we keep going up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_ ... projection the UN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peirce_qui ... projection

That wsa pretty much my idea. I think it works best.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by jayjay » 2012-10-10

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:
jayjay wrote:the map projection that is used could also solve the going 'up' issue. we could just go with a map projection that place the north pole as the center point of the map. that would set the current 'north' most countries as north most and then we'd go 'south' as we keep going up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_ ... projection the UN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peirce_qui ... projection

That wsa pretty much my idea. I think it works best.


clearly, this makes us the biggest nerds in this thread.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-11

President wrote:That's how its been done in the past. With the current map situation you won't get anyone really against expanding.



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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-11

Elidor needs more land to explore otherwise we might have to declare war on someone!
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Reducing the Land Map

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-11

Well then.....
Counterprop:
Reduce the size of the map.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-15

Snudge has indicated that expanding the land map north presents the least amount of work for him as the Land Marshal. Being a globe, expanding north could, in effect, end up being expansions east, west, and south, as well, pending on how it's drawn. And that's really the trick; until it's drawn we have little to say 'yes/no' to.

Shall we ask Snudge to expand the map in the "least amount of work for the land marshal" method and see what he comes up with?
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-11-26

Want more land?

Need co-signers on requesting that the Land Marshal expand the map.

(Almost no lands left in which a new country can home, FYI.)
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-11-26

I'll co-sign, but I don't want to see new land added until we get some new countries, to be honest. The old ones need to just go to war over what already exists. The only reason we need new land is because new countries can't declare at this point.

Perhaps a rider that says existing countries cannot land search on the new land for 6 months or 12 months or something? And maybe even a rider that says "countries formed before XX year". This way, countries that are new, like yours (well, it's new now), have room to spread out without engaging in a ton of wars. If we let, say, Elidor, Ched Nasad or Aqualonia land search on the new land, we're just making the problem of old countries having too much land and money worse.

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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-11-26

Adding an additional (high) cost to countries not native to said new lands might be appropriate. But, what I'd like to do at this juncture is simply get the new lands mapped out. Rules for the implementation of said new lands can be developed (perhaps alongside an adventure) prior to general release.
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Saris Fey-Branche
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by Saris Fey-Branche » 2012-11-26

I am 250% against this proposal, FTR.

This is a war game. War. If your country is desperate for new land and there's none left to search, there's plenty of it out there.

This happens IRL, too, and IFL if one counts fantasy genres. Continents don't just spontaneously form when people fill up previously exisiting masses. It's not that convenient.

I you do expand the land map, it should be entirely inaccessible for "land searching" by old countries for a sigificant period of time and reserved only for founding new countries.

Honestly, though, even that's not necessary. There are over a dozen places currently on the land map for new countries to found in. If they want further land from there, they have plenty of neighbors with land ripe for the taking.
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by fingers630 » 2012-11-26

What about an ongoing "Land Events" chart, wherein things can happen to hexes already owned and people can use their land actions to deal with said events?

The way our land rules are now are kinda silly. I own these 50 hexes of forest because I drove some bandits off in 1987. Um, so you mean in 20 years nothing has ever attempted to take the hex again?
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Re: Expanding the Land Map

Post by mardux zulammar » 2012-11-26

Actually saris, there are several man made islands nowadays. *, crannogs (ancient Irish and Scottish massive structures) were technically considered artificial islands. In thoery, if a large tribe could build a floating castle thousands of years ago, I'm sure we can come up with a way to explain how a bunch of hexes popped up in a land full of elves and magic and all.
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