New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-26

Kai Firebrand wrote:takes the confusion of headband armors away, normalizes steel/stoneskin as well as monk iron skin, and druid bark skin to all one category and keeps the basic hits we have now. a few notations however.

However you cant just make red damage 1point as that puts chain absorbing 2 hits ( even arrows ) and plate at 3.

Leaving red at 2 points means you don't even have to mention its ignoring of armors

However this puts Blacks at a weird situation being at 2 points, it would kill much more quickly than people are used to. wounding AR 1 on the first hit, and wounding plate on the 2nd hit.

Which would be ridiculous as it already got a bump from the current armor change that we've been playtesting (now mortals on a third hit to a limb instead of causing a light wound).

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2012-10-26

I was pointing it out for suggestions, as it is a way better armor system than the current ( or 4 hit ).

I would suggest all armor that still has a point left to block all of the damage from a black weapon swing. for example: AR 1 and 2 would block the first black hit and would be destroyed. AR 3 would block the first 2 black hits before being destroyed. This would keep it at its current (buffed play testing power ) and normalize all other weapons.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-10-26

Maybe I'm totally standing on the hose today (German saying), but I don't see how plate is more powerful now... Are we just referring to white and yellow? I think the campout was good immersion in the new rules, and I thought it was great.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-26

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:Maybe I'm totally standing on the hose today (German saying), but I don't see how plate is more powerful now... Are we just referring to white and yellow? I think the campout was good immersion in the new rules, and I thought it was great.

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Yes, it is more powerful vs white and yellow, the two most common forms of damage in the game.

It is significantly weaker to black (you're now mortalled on a third hit to a limb vs light) and slightly weaker to red (the torso death vs mortal is the only real difference). Of course, the same can be said of black vs other armor classes as well - a lot more mortal wounding from black weapons now.

But plate is buffed vs the two most common types of damage (white is absolutely the most common damage, and flails/MS is a super popular weapon). I think that is where people are having the biggest issue.

For the record, it didn't seem too bad to me, but then again I was wearing plate - I'd have to see how it is when you're in some other armor vs a plate person.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-10-26

I don't think anyone in the King's force had a single problem with normal hit taking. I was wearing a hide torso, studded skirt and hide helmet... I killed the * outta chumps in plate. No probs.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Braxus » 2012-10-27

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:I don't think anyone in the King's force had a single problem with normal hit taking. I was wearing a hide torso, studded skirt and hide helmet... I killed the * outta chumps in plate. No probs.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by President » 2012-10-28

FOCUS!!!

Please comment on the PLAY TEST!!

Moderators - Please split all discussion about yet another hit system to a separate thread. Thanks.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-28

regardless, I think the four point system is better than the old one. I think the "flail weakening" is actually for the best.

The flail still rakes up kills on lazy players (no helms), and being the most OP weapon in the game, it kinda depowers the beardiest class in the game (cleric) in one swoop.

It beefs up the cleric and fighter defensively, so any clerics crying about the flail nerf are obviously lazy. (actually the 4pt system beefs head armor for EVERY class, so wear a hat and your buffs/nerfs are equal trade)

If you are another class and using a flail, man up, level up, train up, and get a sword.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-10-28

My beef against this ac system is that it hurts the classes with lower AC ratings, and it also affects weapon combinations that are openly viable.

When you face up against another person, you have to take into account skill, class skills, armor, range, weapon type, shield type, terrain and formation. Taking out skill, terrain and formation as variables due to it's uncontrollable nature, we've got armor, class skills, range, weapon type, shield type left. For classes that are already limited in some manner, players have to pick up styles to help compensate for the detriments. Think of Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Looking at the changes to armor and weapons, AC3 and AC4 are a bit stronger, and conversely, white and yellow weapons get weaker. Black weapons get a bit of a buff since they kill with fewer strikes. Red stays essentially the same.

So what are really the changes that are going to sprout out? Those classes that are hampered with poor armor, shield and weapon selection will have to severely compensate to make up for the weakening of white and yellow damage. Florentine two swords is going the way of the Dodo. Those that can use shields will use shields. Those that can't use shields will compensate by using weapons that increase range. Mages? Well they get boned, wizards best learn to read quick.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-28

"Two sword has gone the way of the dodo"

Not if you good at it :p
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2012-10-28

Swords stab as well, red is still just as lethal.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-29

Fighter valfryn would and should stomp the * out of any other class valfryn in a straight up fight. If you think otherwise, you don't have game balance in mind.

Lighter armor/weapon classes are DESIGNED to be weaker, you get ABILITIES to counter the combat abilities. (Of which you have to actually wear/carry/swing) . If you are the dude that chooses to run around in a tracksuit with a sweatband for armor, dont act like you deserve to tank a full plate fighter.

Also, what classes don't have black damage these days? Mage,clr,assn,thief? All get really good abils. Backstab, disguise climbwalls, * of spells, * of spells with plate and tower?
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-10-29

Lord Valfryn wrote:Fighter valfryn would and should stomp the * out of any other class valfryn in a straight up fight. If you think otherwise, you don't have game balance in mind.

Lighter armor/weapon classes are DESIGNED to be weaker, you get ABILITIES to counter the combat abilities. (Of which you have to actually wear/carry/swing) . If you are the dude that chooses to run around in a tracksuit with a sweatband for armor, dont act like you deserve to tank a full plate fighter.

Also, what classes don't have black damage these days? Mage,clr,assn,thief? All get really good abils. Backstab, disguise climbwalls, * of spells, * of spells with plate and tower?


I want to tattoo this on everyone's face with a 2x4 every time I hear people arguing that fighters are too powerful or whatever. * you, you don't HAVE to be able to beat my 90th level fighter in a 1 v 1 fight with your 30th level mage or 16th level thief, THAT'S NOT HOW * DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS WORKS!!!!!

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-29

lol a lvl 30 wizard beats a lvl 90 fighter in Dungeons and Dragons 9/10 times. Just fyi :)
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-10-30

scale back the levels for reality's sake... What I'm saying is, in the way Darkon is SUPPOSED to be balanced, mages are supposed to be big guns in the army, slow to reload, making a big impact. They are not supposed to go out seeking to engage a * terminator. I don't know * all about how levels work in D&D first edition whatever, I just know the way Darkon was set up to be based on it, fighters were supposed to be the vast majority of the fielding forces... And Mages and thieves and stuff were complementary roles in a force... This is how it all was explained to me when I joined.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-31

and that is how darkon is. personal talent aside, john the level 2 fighter with his giant shield and plate armor will beat steve the level 40 Mage or Mike the level 35 Monk 99 out of 100 times. even if he is less skilled, because his armor is better, his shield is better, his weapon selection is better.

so what the hell are people whining about? will Mike or Steve get a lucky shot in some times and win? sure. so what should we do? reduce their armor hits and make their shield break in 1 shot? gimme a break.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Inox » 2012-10-31

Mages have become pumped up over the years. They were designed with no headband armor, no capes, no Growth, no Gaseous, and no reductions.

Now, we have a situation where a Mage can get a Fireball off in 15-20 seconds, has to be shot with 3 arrows (minimum) to kill them, and isn't even automatically dead if they get hit holding a spellball, b/c they may be wearing a protection cape. That doesn't even cover all of the other buffs.

They are not glass cannons in this game, nor are they "just another way to fight". They are in many cases and conditions, the single strongest option, by a goodly margin. If a country wants power, there's really no reason for them to make anything other than Mages and a few Clerics for shield wall & Res.

As you know from BWC, Fingers, the easiest path to silliness and unplayability is the proliferation of powerful combat-affecting abilities. That is the path we are on with Mages.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-31

Im still waiting for the days when you see 10 mages throwing 15 second fireballs and ruling during two team battles. Please let me know when this happens, because in 16 years, I still havent seen it.

The sky is not falling because Inox the Mage is a better fighter with 2 hits and a buckler than some fighters out there in plate. Esperonse kicked many peoples ass in plate, with no iron skin, and limited monk weapons. Monks must be severely overpowered.

We can agree to disagree. When I see 20 mages on the field winning a two team for either side because of their uber 2 hit ignoring skin, miniature bucklers, and supposed spam auctioneer style fireball casting, then Ill eat some crow.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Gwydion » 2012-11-12

So back to the armor discussion... : )

With even more play testing how are people feeling about it? The Crown War was weird because we reverted to the old rules. Which really threw me off during the fighting btw. Since we have been playing with the new rules does everyone agree that the new system is better? And what are people thinking about further refining it to a three tiered system?

One point about a three tiered system that I really like is the elimination of 5oz+ leather armor and its replacement in the first tier with hide. Historically what we call hide was leather armor! Leather armor as we currently define it would have been used as clothing or possibly arming wear but never as actual armor. The reason being outside of the slightest hits it does not provide any realistic measure of protection. But that is just me any my obsession with trying to bring more realism into an inherently unrealistic game... Lol.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-11-12

I like the new system and am against making it a 3 point system ... pros or cons the reason years ago I joined darkon and stayed with it over all other systems was that armor gave real protection and is as close to giving hits for what is worn as you will get - I am against making armor weaker and against making it stronger I think it is fine as it is with the new rules

only exception is the same one I always made in these discussions is that head armor should take one less point because of its location which would almost exactly mimic the old rules with reguard to the head
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-11-13

Making an amendment for the head would defeat the purpose of having less addendum to the rule. Armor takes what it takes and that is what makes it simple.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-11-13

I always wear a helm and always liked the old hits helms used to take.
The admendment could be as simple as
"All head armor has 1 less hit then it would normally get for the type of armor it is when on the head location"

But then again I may be alone in this thought :)

Otherwise I have always supported the basic rule change to the new point system and will continue to do so as it makes things simpler and removes pages from the rulebook.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-11-13

Adding it would only take one line...

But I support the reduction of kill power for the cheesiest most unrealistic weapons in the game.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Zentor » 2012-11-13

My question is.....When is the decision going to be made as to what hit system we are using next event?

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-11-13

We should use the old one, just to make it easier on any returning vets.

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