Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

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Gor Strayhorn
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Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2012-10-22

I did a search but couldn't find the discussion on making shield breaking a fighter/cav class ability instead of a weapon ability. Did it not make it to the official forums? Was this co-signed but not passed? What's the story? If no one is pursuing this as a proposal, would anyone cosign?

Thanks.
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-22

I'd cosign right away if you wrote it up right now.

I'd cosign several fighter proposals that have been brought up in the passed. The two that come to mind are this one and the one where a wound that gets first aid used on it actually legitimately heals after a certain amount of time. Both make sense for a fighter and don't even begin to bring a fighter to the same level as a cavalier, which means they're not OP.
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Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-22

I played a game once where shield breaking abilities were fairly common; shields became fairly uncommon.
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-22

Sir Aethilgar wrote:I played a game once where shield breaking abilities were fairly common; shields became fairly uncommon.

Luckily, nobody is proposing that it become common. For years people have tried to add the ability to large two-handed yellow weapons, but are afraid then they'd hamstring some clerics that like big hammers... So the final thought was to just make it an ability for two-handed weapons of a certain length but only fighters and cavaliers can do it.

That won't make it common at all. It still won't even be as common or as easy as in Dagorhir, and while I've never played that game, I've seen many photos full of people with lots of shields... I don't think it'll become a problem
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-22

Mirroring current halberd / great axe rules for yellows? Why not?

Then use similar text to that of the monk for those classes Darkon does not wish breaking shields; "Monks may use any weapons except shieldbreaking weapons, bows, and crossbows."

Just so long as weapon-breaking isn't an ability for single-handed weapons; as it was in the game that I eluded to. (It was an invoked ability, one hit destroyed shields regardless of weapon.)

@ Gor Strayhorn; write up your proposal. We'll have a much better opportunity discussing it after it's written.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-22

Realistically the rule should also be applied to white axes as well. Game wise it would add to the variety of weapons we see on the field. RIght now I very rarely see any white axes because they are heavier and unwieldy compared to a sword and do not give any additional benefit.

Check out this link for what an axe does to a shield in one hit...

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/article ... ld_hit.wmv

While it might not seem to be "shield destroyed" if you were actually standing behind that shield the blade would have continued going and hit you after completely penetrating the shield.

I think that Darkon often overlooks the durability of shields when it comes to weapons and their ability to shield break. I understand that for game balance sake and simplicity that you really can't introduce a complex shield breaking system that takes into account all weapons. However I would like to see an incentive to wield axes that takes into account even a one handed axes ability to destroy shields.

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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-22

Good ideas all around... but I'll hold further comment until a proposal is on the table.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-22

Yeah giant hammers should be shield break. of course people then bitched clerics would be too powerful, but I say anything that gets clerics to use a 2 handed weapon over a tower shield and flail is a good thing...
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-22

fingers630 wrote:Yeah giant hammers should be shield break. of course people then * clerics would be too powerful, but I say anything that gets clerics to use a 2 handed weapon over a tower shield and flail is a good thing...

Which is why the solution is making it an ability for two classes.

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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2012-10-22

Fighter/Cavalier Ability. Rank 1. Weapon Specialization.

While wielding certain weapons the warrior can sunder enemy shields. This ability grants Shield-destroying to the following weapons:
Battle Axes
Halberds


Remove all references to shield-destroying/shield-breaking weapons to restrict players from choosing weapons they want to use. I.E., Rangers, Warrior-Mages and Monks may use halberds and battle axes.

Thoughts.
1.) The name is based off of Dungeons and Dragons Fighter only ability. I would prefer the ability to be rank 5 or so, but I understand if people want to make it a Rank 1 ability.

2.) I wanted the weapons list to be just what we currently have as shield-destroying. We can always add to the list if this ever passes.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-22

Another problem with having halberds and battle axes with shield breaking is that its a neat ability for them but especially for battle axes which don't have the reach it isn't really effective.

When confronted with shield breaking weapons its very easy to move your shield out of the way block with your weapon or simply block with your shield knowing that you can take 2 more hits before its destroyed. Those weapons are large and cumbersome and have a large amount of momentum behind them which makes fake and fients very hard to nearly impossible or very easy to read. This allows someone to use those techniques I just mentioned to defend against them. Immediately after which they will then crowd the axe or halberd wielder and kill them. Additionally I really hate when axe and halberd wielders when crowded half swing and expect it to cause shield breaking damage. The proposal should address very clearly that it has to be a full swing.

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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by shroom2021 » 2012-10-22

I agree that white axes should be added to the list of weapons a fighter can use to shield break. Maybe we could have it break in four instead of three or something to weaken it a little. It would give the single handed axe more purpose and allow fighters on the shield wall to be more effective without spearmen behind them. Still, when on the wall four hits with a one handed weapon to break a shield doesn't seem like too many at all, or too little.

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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2012-10-22

This proposal is only addressing the current weapons that can shield-break. We aren't talking about tactics against SB weapons, or what is a full swing or what weapons we should add to be SB. All of those things can be addressed later, but we have to take baby steps.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-22

I like the idea of white axes taking four hits instead of three. I would also like to increase the ability of glaives and black axes to destroy shields quicker prompting more of their use. I would like to see them destroy shields in 2 hits. That will actually make shield breaking worthwhile for them. Also with a 4 hit white axes/2 hit black axes and glaives the math is easier for determining you your overall shield condition since a black axe and glaive could simply count as two hits. Therefore shields could be considered to have 4 hits total.

The proposal might only be addressing current weapons. However since this is the proposal discussion section we are discussing the current proposal with boths are likes and dislikes as well as what we would like to see the final proposal look like.

Tactics are very relevant to this discussion. We have to understand how it currently works in gameplay which involves tactics and how the proposal will change gameplay which again involves tactics. If we don't take tactics into account what is the point of trying to balance gameplay, realism, and enjoyment of the game?

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fingers630
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-23

So if you give Shields 4 hits are you giving bucklers 3 or just screwing people with them more?
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by shroom2021 » 2012-10-23

I don't see why bucklers would have the same ability to withstand these weapons. How does the following sound:

Shields - Four hits to break from a white weapon (swords excluded) in the hands of a fighter
- Two hits to break from a black weapon (swords excluded) in the hands of a fighter
Bucklers - Two hits to break from a white weapon (swords excluded) in the hands of a fighter
- One hit to break from a black weapon (swords excluded) in the hands of a fighter

I don't see this nerfing bucklers, but severly weakening them against shield break so that they don't function as "non breakable armour" as I have seen some of them used. Additionally two handed fighters would provide more damage to a shield wall while still remaining vulnerable to the spears behind.

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Ogre Solaris
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-10-23

I like that. One handed is half as strong as two handed. Makes sense and it's easy.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by mardux zulammar » 2012-10-23

Actually Shroom, what you say does nerf bucklers, as well as regular shields. Currently bucklers take 2 hits and regular shields take 3. If you drop 1 hit from each while putting a *load of shieldbreaking on the field, you're going to * off a lot of darkon.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Ericson » 2012-10-23

I think fighters have way too many abilities and this will make them uber-OP (/sarcasm)

This also ties in nicely to the new armor/hit system. Shields have 4 HP, bucklers have 2 HP.

And just as an FYI, Shroom/Caeldorn normally plays as a line fighter, so this would directly impact him during game play.

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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by mardux zulammar » 2012-10-23

Line fighter or not. That's one person suggesting and willing to make a sacrifice that would directly effect half of darkon.

Dont get me wrong, I'm totally down with giving fighters something and always have been. But don't mess with shield "hit points". Or if you want to do it that bad, wait till the sb ability passes and let the influx of sb roll around the realm for a while first to see what happens.
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Prince Andrick
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-10-23

An influx of SB weapons will never happen unless it was made much easier then this idea would. Don't get me wrong, I agree with taking it slow and just making SB a fighter ability with all black weapons first (except swords) and see what happens. Easier to add stuff then it ever will be to take stuff away.

Every time anything to do with SB comes up, people freak out. Darkonians do love their shields. The simple fact is swords are so much better then any other options because they are so well balanced. Axes, glaives, halbreds etc all have the extreme disadvantage of bad imbalance. Malkin with a greatsword or Slindar with a sword and board is a much more formidable opponent then great axe wielding Malkin or axe and shield weilding Slindar.

I'd be willing to bet if this proposal passes, you'll see less then a 10% increase in the use of SB weapons. Add white axes to the list and ya might see another 20%. Even at that, SB would still be rare on the field.

Now if you made black swords SB, then you'd be going too far and it would be everywhere.

In any case, as I said take it slow and make it a fighter/cav ability. See what happens (I am betting almost nothing) and then change as needed down the road.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-23

Lots of good discussion going on here....

@ Shroom Good call on making propsoing the idea of bucklers being able to take two white hits or one black. That is a very simple and common sense solution. Also like you mentioned it parallels the current revision in our armor system that we are currently ongoing. I also agree with you about how it helps to nerf the current use of bucklers as unbreakable armor. I found that to be a power gaming abuse of the rules in the case of the instances where they are made to look like armor. Otherwise when using bucklers as a normally shaped and identifiable shield I have no problem with it.

@Mardux As it stands shields breaking is a very weak very rare and a completely underutilized aspect of Darkon. I think the point of this proposal is to 1.) Boost fighters who outside of the ability to wear plate which isn't even unique to their class give them another special ability. 2.) Make shield breaking a legit option both for weapon selection as well as part of the game play experience. Slightly improving shield breaking to what we have discussed will not break the game. The reason is because the weakened shield breaking ability of white axes (4 hits) balanced with the unwieldy nature, inability to feint, lack of precision, and usually shorter length then when compared to swords balances the weapon. Also with the proliferation of swords with red stabbing tips you are also giving up the stabbing ability for shield breaking which is huge! red/white pokey swords are amazing! All the while it makes the game more realistic gives fighters a boost depending on your proclivity for using shield breaking weapons and adds an almost forgot aspect of gameplay to Darkon. Furthermore the current proposal will do nothing to increase the use of shield breaking weapons. I play a fighter and a ranger and I will never give up my sword and board so that I can take a black axe and hopefully hit one persons shield three times before I get rushed and killed. The idea that the current proposal is a change for the better for shield breaking as a fighter ability or not is laughable. Three hit shield breaking for a black axe and glaive isn't enough of an incentive for anyone to take a shield breaking weapon as a fighter class outside of roleplaying/character preferences but never in terms of effectiveness.

@ Prince Andrick I completely agree with you and couldn't have put it better. These rules will 1.) Only affect fighters. 2.) Are not overpowering and merely give the option to play shield breaking with a white axe because now you can defend yourself with a shield or with a black axe/glaive because now its possible to break shields with two hits. 3.) However it doesn't make shield breaking overpowering because people will use different tactics when fighting shield breaking weapons such as blocking with their weapons moving their shield out of the way in the case of white axes or rushing to get inside the swing in the case of black axes/glaives.

The original proposal is a nice idea but doesn't do enough to buff them to make worth while to use. Especially considering it will be a fighters only ability.

Sorry I know that I am repeating myself in some cases verbatim in others paraphrase but what I really think that this is a better proposal if modified to make black shield breaking stronger and give a white axe shield breaking option.

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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2012-10-23

BOTH fighters and cavaliers would get this ability. I only see one point to discuss in this thread, and that is at what rank should the ability be available.

SB Damage, and opening up the SB-list is NOT on this proposal/thread. To me, this proposal is a staging ground for further proposals about SBing. However, we need to focus on this proposal to change as little as possible for the first step. I agree that the SB-list should be increased but that is a proposal for a different day, after this proposal has been passed (if Darkon wills it).

Thanks.
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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-23

What is the point of having a proposal discussion board/thread if you are unable to discuss and change the proposals?

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Re: Fighter Ability: Shield Breaking

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2012-10-23

Gwydion,

1. Well a proposal needs cosigners before it can be voted on in Senate.

2. Discussion of the proposal is welcome. However, talking about things that are not going into the proposal only muck up the actual discussion based on the proposal. Adding white axes or black glaives is not in the proposal. Adding a new mechanic of shield points is not in this proposal.

3. There is no tactics change. This is merely taking a "weapon enchantment" (Shield destroying)" and turning it into an ability. If this proposal were to pass, no change in tactics is necessary. Its not like you as a warrior are changed in anyway by making this an ability.

I'm not trying to stop you from flushing out your ideas, I am trying to keep this thread cohesive and on task. Want to introduce a 4 point shield system? Make a new proposal. Want to add weapons to a list? Make a new proposal.

Like I said, I'm not trying to stop you from making your own point, but I want this thread to have focus.

Thanks.
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