Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

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Sir Aethilgar
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Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-24

For your discussion prior to formal submission:

1. Policy Proposal Name: Update to Buckler and Shield Text
2. Proposal Originator:
a. name: Sir Aethilgar
b. email: aethilgar@gmail.com
3. Proposal Version: 1.0
4. Date: 10/24/2012
5. Proposal type: Modification of Buckler and Destroyed Shield Rules
6. Policy term: Permanent
7. Policy statement:
This proposal is to modify the rules and text regarding bucklers and destroyed shields from:

"Shields that fasten to the arm, leaving the hand free, are called bucklers. Bucklers must be between 12" and 18" in size and may be made from 1/4" thick wood. A player may wear one buckler shield on each arm, but may not use both a buckler and a normal shield.

Bucklers, as specified in this rulebook, are considered shields but are strapped to the arm and made with lighter materials. As such, shieldbreaking weapons will destroy them with two hits (this includes mages shields; if they follow the specifications, outlined in the rulebook, for bucklers).

Because it is difficult to remove a buckler during combat, any hits to an already destroyed buckler (still strapped to a players arm) will count as a normal hit.

Again, because it is difficult to remove a buckler during combat, any hits to a buckler which is strapped to an injured arm (i.e. light wound) shall count as though said arm was struck directly."

To:

"Shields that fasten to the forearm; leaving the hand free, are called bucklers. Bucklers must be between 12" and 18" in size and may be made from 1/4" thick wood. A player may wear one buckler and may not use both a buckler and a normal shield.

Because bucklers are made with lighter materials than normal shields; shieldbreaking weapons destroy them with two hits (this includes mages shields if they follow the buckler specifications outlined in the rulebook).

Because it is difficult to remove shields during combat, any hits to an already destroyed shield that is still strapped to a players arm will count as a normal hit to that forearm. Hits and wounds are counted normally to whatever armor is present on the shielded forearm."



8. Rationale:

First regarding bucklers; bucklers were never meant to become invulnerable armor and yet "buckler armor" can be seen on the field today. This creates an abusive situation where a player may make entire portions of their body immune to melee or missile attack. This is particularly true for 'upper-arm' bucklers which; due to their position, may create a dangerous situation where players attack the collarbone rather than the shoulder in an attempt to get around said buckler thus swinging close to another player's head. The use of bucklers should return to a single shield mounted to the wrist.

Second regarding destroyed shields; those using shield destroying weapons seem to be penalized if they must wait for a non-buckler user to drop their shield before they continue to attack. Fighting will not stop around them, there will be no 'hold' called to drop a destroyed shield; so there should be no reason to penalize those using a shield destroying weapon. Just as hits to destroyed bucklers are today counted toward the location they are strapped; so, too, should all hits against destroyed shields count to the location they are strapped.
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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-24

I think that if you are going to do this you might as well just make no limit to shields. This way it lets a player decide if their shield is going to strap to their arm, their bicep, and whatnot. Whats also nice about this is that a shield is a shield and its a shield wherever it is. This will take out unnecessary text and make things simpler.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-24

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I think that if you are going to do this you might as well just make no limit to shields. This way it lets a player decide if their shield is going to strap to their arm, their bicep, and whatnot. Whats also nice about this is that a shield is a shield and its a shield wherever it is. This will take out unnecessary text and make things simpler.


Would that not also mean that all shields would have to be constructed the same? (I.e. - All shields with 1/2 wood cores?)
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by mardux zulammar » 2012-10-24

Sir Aethilgar wrote:
Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I think that if you are going to do this you might as well just make no limit to shields. This way it lets a player decide if their shield is going to strap to their arm, their bicep, and whatnot. Whats also nice about this is that a shield is a shield and its a shield wherever it is. This will take out unnecessary text and make things simpler.


Would that not also mean that all shields would have to be constructed the same? (I.e. - All shields with 1/2 wood cores?)


I don't really see why bucklers get to be 1/4" anyway. My mage buckler has always been made of 1/2" and I can't feel any difference in weight or anything.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-24

Yes it would mean that all shields need to be 1/2 inch thick wood and such. This would mean that if one wanted to though that they could have a 24" buckler on their forearm if their class were to allow such a shield size. I have another cool thought that if this rule passed through senate it would allow for other options as well. I feel that with making everything the same and then applying whatever type of protection they wanted their shield to give them is better then forcing someone to go one way or another.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-24

Good simple fix by forcing bucklers to be attached to the forearm and only allowing one I like it!

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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-24

Im saying that even if its a buckler style, it could still be shield sized. So if you have a 30" shield on your upper arm or some crazyness, thats all you have. It wouldn't matter where you put the shield as long as its under your shield restriction.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-24

The one shield system is good, and bad. I still don't know how I feel about the "back shield", but I have the feeling that giving my guys a tower shield strapped to their backs as they use spears won't last very long.

I guess I really don't like the idea of players who usually wouldn't carry a shield at all being able to make their backs invulnerable to weapon damage. Unless it was tied to the "shield damaging 1h/2h weapons" ideas that has been kicked around (IE back shields would offer no protection VS SB weapons of any kind)... I would have a hard time determining if it would be good for gameplay or not.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-24

I was not going to get into back shields for the time being, but since you opened that can of worms :). The thing with a back shield is that its not a game breaker like some people think. You could even make back stab bypass a back shield because it fits with the fluff of the skill. Also, one who has their shield on their back has it protected, but guess where its not..... A shield on your back does nothing for you against the person in front of you.

Also, I think one handed shield breaking is crazy. Two handed weapons I am all about doing that for as long as black swords remain non shield breaking. Shield breaking weapons to a back shield would still take the same amount of strikes, or why would you wear one lol. I can go further and give examples but it would be better explained and shown in person.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-25

I think that we should keep shields either attached to the forearm or in one's hands to be effective. This would remove invulnerable shoulder armor and 'back shields' unless one was purposefully blocking those locations.

Further, leaving buckler size and construction in place would allow existing bucklers to remain in game so long as they are strapped to a forearm. It also prevents a 'tower shield and great sword' combination that removing the buckler size limits could produce.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-25

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I was not going to get into back shields for the time being, but since you opened that can of worms :). The thing with a back shield is that its not a game breaker like some people think. You could even make back stab bypass a back shield because it fits with the fluff of the skill. Also, one who has their shield on their back has it protected, but guess where its not..... A shield on your back does nothing for you against the person in front of you.



Yes, but a shield on your back does something against the person behind you. Takes a bit of the load off, I think.

As to the SB thing, I dont think it makes perfect sense, but it could be used as a counterbalance to the strengths of the backshield. Yes, it would defend you from mild slashes and arrows... would having a shield strapped to your back save your spine from a maul or battle axe? Not really. Figure we could blunt the power of "tankbacks" a little.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-25

This really makes me laugh lol. Ok, so a shield is a shield no matter where it is. If you go to cleave at my back with an axe and it hits my shield, it will push me aside and not cleave through the shield in one strike. Thats absurd. Theres no difference between my arm and my back. The shield is still a shield.

As far as "tank backs" goes, thats like saying, we should really do something to counter balance those "Tank fronts". Its not the crazyness that you think it is really. Also, removing the buckler size would create that type of combo, but its ineffective. If you want to have a buckler on your arm the size of a tower shield go right ahead, have fun getting chumped because you can't swing it. You can think of the craziest thing someone can put together, but it won't last long.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-26

there used to be shields allowed on backs in the past. it was removed as apparently it wasnt good for the game. ask an old person like Inox or Arioch Im sure they could fill in why.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-26

I wouldn't want to see shields strapped to the back... but holding a shield over any portion of the body should be acceptable.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-26

there is nothing against holding a shield over any portion of your body to my knowledge in the rulebooks. I see people holding shields behind them the ward off arrows all the time.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-26

I mean, I don't see the reason why it would be a bad thing. If you could tell me why it was changed maybe we can see if we can improve it. It makes sense that a shield would protect you if it was on your back, and I don't see how it would effect game balance.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by shroom2021 » 2012-10-27

I want to agree that allowing us to wear shields on our backs wouldn't be abused, but then I remember buckler armor...

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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-27

yeah people bitch about indestructible little 8 inch shields on the shoulders, imagine the bitching with 30+ inch shields on the back making you immune to backstab, arrows to the back, etc.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-28

A shield on your back doesn't protect you as well because it's not actively being used. Hold your shield flat against your stomach and let a glaive hit you with a SB hit, I think you may know the difference between the force hitting you there and when you're actively deflecting the force with your shield.

As to "tank fronts", they (those actively wielding shields) are giving up the capability to wield 2h weapons and guard their backs by doing so.



Would this rule allow me to strap a 18" shield to my chest?
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-28

Strapping shields to a portion of your anatomy other than your forearm or held in your hand is not part of this proposal.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by President » 2012-10-29

Aethilgar,

There are people who want to be able to strap a shield on and have it be effective. In particular is the ability to attach a shield to their back in such a way as to prevent damage to armor or body. I have no interest in finding out how this would effect game play but it would look stupid and is cheesy as hell and currently illegal.

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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-10-29

Everyone has their opinions. I think its not cheesy and doesn't look stupid, However, I was not the one who opened that can of worms. Anyway, making the shield rules the same would streamline it and make it simpler. We could even keep in the rules that if a shield is 18" or under it can be cored with 1/4 wood. This would allow current bucklers to still be legal, and allow for the other shields to be used.

The only difference between bucklers and shields is the way they are strapped and you can have wood that is less thick in a buckler. The size restriction is there as well. If you take away the size restriction, and the way its strapped, its the same as a shield.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-29

President wrote:Aethilgar,

There are people who want to be able to strap a shield on and have it be effective. In particular is the ability to attach a shield to their back in such a way as to prevent damage to armor or body. I have no interest in finding out how this would effect game play but it would look stupid and is cheesy as * and currently illegal.


Then they are welcome to write a proposal and present it for comment; it is not part of mine. :D

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:Anyway, making the shield rules the same would streamline it and make it simpler. We could even keep in the rules that if a shield is 18" or under it can be cored with 1/4 wood. This would allow current bucklers to still be legal, and allow for the other shields to be used.

The only difference between bucklers and shields is the way they are strapped and you can have wood that is less thick in a buckler. The size restriction is there as well. If you take away the size restriction, and the way its strapped, its the same as a shield.


Will you 'second' this proposal if it were made official?
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-10-29

I tried to get this passed, minus the only one buckler thing, several years ago. Malkin was on the they are ok side of the debate and managed to convince the Senate that buckler armor is not armor because people can turn to interpose the buckler to incoming blows. Never mind that might be, and I am being generous, 10% of the time. The other 90% it is armor plain and simple (indestructible at that). I hate them and always will. However, I am not fighting that fight again. I do wish you luck however, as they are total cheese in my opinion.
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Re: Open Discussion on Buckler and Destoryed Shield Text

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-29

Prince Andrick wrote:I tried to get this passed, minus the only one buckler thing, several years ago. Malkin was on the they are ok side of the debate and managed to convince the Senate that buckler armor is not armor because people can turn to interpose the buckler to incoming blows. Never mind that might be, and I am being generous, 10% of the time. The other 90% it is armor plain and simple (indestructible at that). I hate them and always will. However, I am not fighting that fight again. I do wish you luck however, as they are total cheese in my opinion.


Thank you for your support! Second it and lets see what the Senate thinks of invulnerable buckler armor today.
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