Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-11-02

"Feign Death" is now a more pointless spell thanks to last year's proposal adding the line "I INVOKE" to every spell. Before feigning death (unless struck by a weapon after saying the words), a caster now has to yell, "I ____ INVOKE FEIGN DEATH", which draws attention to the caster and makes the spell even more useless.

I somehow doubt this was the intention of the original proposal. I believe the intention was to fix things like "release portal" and "dispel magic" which can be used offensively but had no indication of when they were happening according to the rules.

(Inox's justification paragraph: Invocation lines are random and confusing to new players. The spell Ice Storm is hurled while talking about ice from the north. A Warp Wood involves yelling about nature’s warp, with wood never being mentioned. Why is Fireball always coming from the sun? Even veteran players sometimes make mistakes on invocation lines.)

I propose excluding this line for the following: "feign death", protection spells (this would include a mage's shield - no point in yelling about your shield), light, and pre-cast/holding spells (pouch, magic stone, prayer touch) from the list of spells that need to have this yelled (kinda pointless to yell I ____ INVOKE POUCH and then read your next spell).

If there are any other passive spells or anything that makes sense to add, please list them here and I will add them to a final proposal if it makes sense.

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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-11-02

Do we have a link to the original proposal? Also do we have a link to the old rules regarding casting spells? Be nice to compare/contrast.

Ill be sure to let the Elders know that anyone who gets up from FD at the crownwar has cheated unless they shouted out FEIGN DEATH LOL. so dumb.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by President » 2012-11-03

Any 2011 rulebook has the old version, the January 2012 and later has the new version.

http://www.darkon.org/DarkonRulebook-July2012.pdf
http://www.darkon.org/DarkonRulebook-July2011.pdf

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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-11-03

fingers630 wrote:Do we have a link to the original proposal? Also do we have a link to the old rules regarding casting spells? Be nice to compare/contrast.

Ill be sure to let the Elders know that anyone who gets up from FD at the crownwar has cheated unless they shouted out FEIGN DEATH LOL. so dumb.

Unless they get hit by something before invoking it... Then the effects of the spell are fully visited on the caster, i.e. it works as was originally intended.

Pretty silly, though, yeah.

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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by exoduscleric » 2012-11-04

I do not think that this was ever intended in terms of the spell "feign death." I understand (and support) the proposal and rule that followed based on the fact that it clarified and announced what a player was doing. This simplified things on the field so that people understood how and why something (such as a passwall or release portal) was happening. It makes zero sense in terms of feign death by the nature of the spell. I just don't think it was considered when the rule was put into effect. It effectively completely breaks the spell. For this reason, I would ask for a clarification that says that "feign death" specifically does not require someone to scream an invocation line across the battle field. I understand rules as written, but the concept of feign death and the rule as written completely conflict one another and I don't think anyone would think this was ever supposed to work this way. Put it through senate to be sure, but do we really need to effectively remove this spell from the game until then?

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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Zentor » 2012-11-04

Easier for the Senate and EB to vote and let it be officially changed in 4 events. No one will whine and cry that way.

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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-11-05

It should just be indicated WHICH spells require an invocation line as to which ones do not:

magic missile
lightning bolt
ice storm
fire ball
feeble mind

etc

(spell balls and dispel magick I believe)
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by mardux zulammar » 2012-11-05

I honestly never understood what the problem was with how we used cast spells. I could see changing invocation lines to open more RP options. But what was wrong just saying a spells name (if it didn't have an invocation line) instead of giving every single spell in the game those generic lines?
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-11-05

My opinion of 'invocation' lines in spells; your mileage may vary.

At the Crown War I was within the radius of two fireball strikes. I did not see them. I was not directly hit by them so did not feel them. I never heard a shouted spell invocation. Both times I was informed that the fireball had landed and my protection from fire was gone; once by an elder, once by a teammate. Both times I dropped back to have Prot from Fire recast before moving back into the line.

Honestly; in such a big scrum, I do not think many heard invocation lines being shouted. I know that I didn't. And don't think that I fault the casters for not making their spells clear to me on a personal level, I don't. In the din of combat, more shouting is quite easy to miss. I 100% trust that the spells were read correctly and that all rules of combat regarding them were followed. I also trust that those around me will let me know when I fail to notice that I'm in a spell effect radius; as was the case at the war.

For me; the system worked just fine without my personally hearing an invocation line.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-11-05

Sir Aethilgar wrote:My opinion of 'invocation' lines in spells; your mileage may vary.

At the Crown War I was within the radius of two fireball strikes. I did not see them. I was not directly hit by them so did not feel them. I never heard a shouted spell invocation. Both times I was informed that the fireball had landed and my protection from fire was gone; once by an elder, once by a teammate. Both times I dropped back to have Prot from Fire recast before moving back into the line.

Honestly; in such a big scrum, I do not think many heard invocation lines being shouted. I know that I didn't. And don't think that I fault the casters for not making their spells clear to me on a personal level, I don't. In the din of combat, more shouting is quite easy to miss. I 100% trust that the spells were read correctly and that all rules of combat regarding them were followed. I also trust that those around me will let me know when I fail to notice that I'm in a spell effect radius; as was the case at the war.

For me; the system worked just fine without my personally hearing an invocation line.

Exactly. This... 100%.

I've been yelled at by people before saying I wasn't loud enough with my invocation line, to know that I was actually yelling it, and sometimes elders have told them to drop it because I did yell it. You just can't always hear every little thing that is being yelled by every single person. There is armor clanking, swords hitting things and making noise, people yelling colors, people reading, people shouting orders, and finally people yelling invocation lines. Some people think, for some reason, if you don't hear the invocation line over all of that stuff, the caster is cheating... But I mean, you can yell and be lost in all of that noise.

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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-11-05

Buuuut... nothing's perfect... there's also the people who will run while yelling FIREBALL and run away... Yeah... that happened. * mages. My 2 cents... I agree that we should DEFINITELY drop invocation lines on things like feign death and pouch and whatnot, that's just dumb.

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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-11-05

LOL yup like the people who watch a fireball land right next to them, turn around and say "i didnt see anything, you dont like it, tell an elder" while turning around to go fight. That too happened.

Ill make up a list of spells that need invocation lines and we can propose the fix.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Zodiac89 » 2012-11-06

fingers630 wrote:LOL yup like the people who watch a fireball land right next to them, turn around and say "i didnt see anything, you dont like it, tell an elder" while turning around to go fight. That too happened.

Ill make up a list of spells that need invocation lines and we can propose the fix.


That's when you have someone on your team stab them with something pointy, repeatedly.

edit: which reminds me, how the * do you graze someone with a dagger? I had some dainty * tell me I "grazed" him. Last time I checked it's physically impossible to graze someone with a dagger if you stab them with it.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-11-06

You are quite mistaken. You can and will most of the time graze with a dagger unless you plant it in a pocket of their body. Our daggers are not pointy, and most are built with a round head. If its not dead on it will just skim off most of the time. Our game gets results from solid blows, not sliding cuts.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-11-06

Yup ive often had daggers hit my shield and "graze" my arm as they slide past. Ive done the same to other people and do not exppect them to take said hit.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-11-06

Best solution is to make sure your dagger is covered with the least slippery cloth you can find.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Sir Sturmbjorne » 2012-11-06

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:You are quite mistaken. You can and will most of the time graze with a dagger unless you plant it in a pocket of their body. Our daggers are not pointy, and most are built with a round head. If its not dead on it will just skim off most of the time. Our game gets results from solid blows, not sliding cuts.


This.

Anyways, back to invocation lines.

I agree, certain spells should not have them. Figure out which ones and present to Senate.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-11-06

Current rules for casting a spell:

Casting a Spell
In order for a player to cast a spell, he must read the full length of the spell from either his spell book or a scroll, up to, but not including, the invocation line if required. The spell must be read loudly and clearly, so that it is audible to those around the caster. A caster may not speak (other than reading the spell), fight, move his feet, or be moved from his position while casting a spell. If the caster speaks, fights, moves, or is hit by a weapon (including shafts) during spell casting, the spell is negated and the spell points are forfeited. If the caster wishes, he may then begin the spell again from the beginning.

The spell is considered "cast" when the full spell has been read, up to, but not including the invocation line. Once the spell is cast, the caster may then hold the spell indefinitely before invoking it. While holding a spell, the caster may not speak, and is permitted to move no more than five steps from his original position. Also, while holding a spell, the caster may not be moved by another player. If a weapon strikes the spell caster while he is holding a spell, the spell effects are visited fully upon the caster.

For example, if a Mage is struck be an arrow while holding a cast Fireball spell, the spell detonates in the Mage’s hands.

When the caster is ready to invoke a spell, he says, "I, [Name], invoke [Spell Name]!” and the spell effects will take place. The invocation line of a spell must be shouted and read continuously. It is at the time of invoking a spell that the caster must release any material components the spell requires, such as spell balls. Spell casters may not cast a spell if they are mortally wounded or have a light wound on both arms.

Example: If a Mage is casting Lightning Bolt, which has a required length of at least 150 words and the five word invocation line "I, [Name], invoke Lightning Bolt!" he must read at least 145 words to cast the spell. To invoke the spell, he reads the invocation line and immediately throws the component, a blue spell ball, at his target. If he is interrupted before the spell is considered “cast,” the spell fizzles and he expends 1 spell point. He may then begin casting the spell again, from the beginning. However, if he had been interrupted during the invocation line, with the spell ball still in his possession, the spell effects cause a black wound to his throwing arm.


I propose changing only 1 sentence in the current rule, which I feel should have been included in the first place as it was hinted at in the first paragraph but not continued into the second:

The spell is considered "cast" when the full spell has been read, up to, but not including the invocation line should one be required. Once the spell is cast, the caster may then hold the spell indefinitely before invoking it.

The the following spells should be marked with the footnote #1 (which currently is not in use for anything):

Cleric- Word of Holding, Turn Undead (Include Rank in invocation), Curse
Druid- Lightning Bolt, Warp Wood, Dispel Magic, Entangle, Nature Love
Mage - Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic, Ice Storm, Feeble Mind, Fireball
Cavalier- Turn Undead
Warrior Mage- Magic Missile, Dispel Magic

Footnote #1 should be then removed from any spells not listed above, and have the notation "Spells marked in this fashion require an invocation line before they are considered cast."

Thoughts?
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Inox » 2012-11-06

No, we need an invocation line for things like Passwall, Release Portal, etc., and there's no reason to not have them for things like Light or Detect Magic.

The only one where it should really be absent is Feign Death. So, let's use notation 1 for "This spell does not require an invocation line."
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-11-06

I'm not seeing why we need one for light, personally.

It's not doing anything to anybody, so there needn't be a warning... And the spell effect is simply that a light appears, so everybody will know it was cast.

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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by mardux zulammar » 2012-11-06

What's the reasoning behind needing the lines for things other than the list fingers gave us?
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by Inox » 2012-11-06

It lets people know that an effect is taking place, so they can react to it.

If you cast Release Portal on a gate, how do we know to open it, or anything else? If you cast Resurrection or Cure Mortal, how does someone know it's done?

It makes communication of game mechanics easier, which makes gameplay smoother.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by mardux zulammar » 2012-11-06

By that logic, shouldn't we have fighters announce when they've mended a shield or have thieves/assassins announce when they're picking locks, climbing walls, or reading magical languages?

And back before every spell required invocation lines, you knew the spell was complete because the caster would have to say the spells name (assuming they were actually following the rules). It seems to me giving every spell the line does is make things a bit more tedious or give people the caster might be using the the spell against more time to react.
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-11-06

Yeah I find yelling passwall completely unnecessary when I am sneaking 5 assassins into Mordom to assassinate Eliphas kinda pointless.

By that logic all clerics need to please yell that they are ressurecting players so that way we know it, and can come kill them while they are doing it.

Invocation lines should be for spell balls (like they ALWAYS have been) and for Dispel since it is a radius effect. There is 0 need to invoke casting magic shield or light. WTF seriously light?
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Re: Removing "I invoke" line for select spells.

Post by DrSquirrel » 2012-11-08

fingers630 wrote:
Invocation lines should be for spell balls (like they ALWAYS have been) and for Dispel since it is a radius effect. There is 0 need to invoke casting magic shield or light. * seriously light?


Agreed if I am standing of to the side healing my arm or legs because the enemy left me, i would not want to scream I Dr. Squirrel Invoke Cure Light wounds though it does sound pretty good to say some times i feel like its a horrible idea.
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