A proposal for arguement & assassins!

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Snudge
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A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Snudge » 2012-12-28

Inox wanted a proposal for people to argue about

I propose that at level 20 assassins get signature poison added to their personal writ.
Signature poisons may only be cured or neutralized by the antidote that the assassin carries on their person, not by any other means
If they use their personal writ, they must have the antidote on their person.
This proposal is meant to counter all the res potions in the game and make assassins able to get at least 1 contract done.

And......ARGUE!
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Inox » 2012-12-28

The problem as I see it is that it is too easy to get close enough to do an assassination. People can put on their Disguise with a surcoat of a country, and mingle just for a moment or two with the group before stabbing someone.

I feel like Disguise should allow you to hide who you are (e.g. you are a nondescript merchant, or what-have-you), but not appear as a member of a specific country. Therefore, it would be really key for keeping assassins from being recognized during the act, and would let them hide & avoid reprisals, but it wouldn't give them an effective "free strike".

I mean, we used to allow Disguise to be used to impersonate specific people, but that was too clownshoes. If we taper it back just a little more, we can make the actually important ability of assassination have more teeth.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Snudge » 2012-12-28

If you remove that ability to disguise as a member of a country, you open the door to cheese. Like a country banning anyone that isn't a member of a country from entering their camp. You just KoS anyone not in a country. Sorry about your luck nomads.

Alternatively to this we could just remove res potions from the game.
Clerics are the only class that can make a potion of a spell of that level.
All res pots are now cure mortal or cure serious. Problem solved
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Inox » 2012-12-28

If an assassin can't isolate a target or hit them with a missile weapon, they shouldn't get the kill.

If you can't even sneak up on someone, why should you get to take their character out for 24 hours?
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by fingers630 » 2012-12-29

and while were at it, make assassinations last 1 hour....GO!
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Volney » 2012-12-29

Possible thoughts for the signature Writ; note that they could be counted separately.

Said poison due to it's construction can not be applied to weapons, hence causing it to be used in a more RP style, (although perhaps allow it to be applied to a mortal wound to cause a lethal attack.)

Also a question on the Poison, would other characters be able to recognize the signature of the poison, (at the least be able to find out if it's the same poison used.)
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Snudge » 2012-12-29

what if I want to start a war between my enemies. IE
Frame one country for openly assassinating another. Losing that ability would be no fun
Fingers....no.
I would go for the RP idea, making them ingest it would be fun and harder, which covers part of inox's point about having to be a good assassin
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Inox » 2012-12-29

I think the value of the "making one country think another did it" gambit is outweighed by the way the country disguise is cheesed continually. Also, there are ways to frame people regardless. :D

Again, it seems to me that in all the examples in RP that I can think of, the hallmarks of legendary assassins were a near-supernatural ability to hide & stalk their target, and then quickly take a kill when they were vulnerable.

I don't think Assassinations should be occurring in the context of a mass melee, nor should they be happening when someone walks into the front gate and just gets to be ignored by the rules. What in any way is epic or glorious about that? How can that ever be a good story to retell?

Assassinations should be ARTFUL. They should not be easy.

I would be happy with the following:

1.) Disguise limited to generic personas, not specific countries.
2.) All Assassinations must be by surprise AND outside of ongoing combat
3.) Assassinations last for 1 hour.
4.) There is no means to reverse Assassinations (i.e. Res does not work)

Now, also, how about:

1.) The Assassin can attach the Writ to an arrow shaft or crossbow bolt. If so done, the arrow non-magically strikes as the Arrow of Piercing against the target for the first shot. If that initial shot misses, the hit attempt is considered a botch. Note that this arrow should also be poisoned to ensure prompt death. :D This should probably also ignore Missile Ward (the only AoP protection, currently).

2.) At 10th Rank, the Assassin's Backstab ability improves only when performing Assassinations. A successful torso strike from behind, with surprise, results in Death. The Assassin should call 'Death' when this ability is used.

I think this would make them deadlier in the right instances, but make it harder to get close to the target via rules alone.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-12-29

Fantasy movies and games are rife with people trying to start wars by impersonating other people, pretending to be from somewhere else, or simply framing someone somehow. In Darkon, we are limited to how we could possibly frame another country for something. Taking away one of the remaining ways is not going to be good for anybody.

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Snudge » 2012-12-29

If assassinations would need to artful and outside of combat, then you would need them to retain their 24 hours duration. Having a shanker put alot of work into finding and killing their target to have them come back in an hour would be really disheartening. You might be able to get away with 12 hours in this instance, but certainly not 1

Alternatively, maybe consider level drains.
If the person that assassinates you is higher level than you, your level is reduced to 0 and you are removed for the duration. If your level is higher, you are reduced to whatever the level difference is but remain your character survives with a lingering injury that affects your character level.
This would also have the effect of allowing high level people to be tortured, by having their effective level reduced
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Inox » 2012-12-29

Snudge wrote:If assassinations would need to artful and outside of combat, then you would need them to retain their 24 hours duration. Having a shanker put alot of work into finding and killing their target to have them come back in an hour would be really disheartening.

Alternatively, maybe consider level drains.


Nah, I hate level drains. Honestly, I kind of hate ranks in the game at all.

However, you have to consider what the *point* of assassination is. Is it punitive, to the player, or is it strategic, in terms of the gameplay? If the former, it's loathsome & should be limited or curtailed entirely in that capacity. If it's strategic, losing a caster, country leader, member of the court, or other key person at a crucial time for a full hour would often be the difference between success and failure for an entire group. That's already huge.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Inox » 2012-12-29

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:Fantasy movies and games are rife with people trying to start wars by impersonating other people, pretending to be from somewhere else, or simply framing someone somehow. In Darkon, we are limited to how we could possibly frame another country for something. Taking away one of the remaining ways is not going to be good for anybody.



Framing other countries for assassinations does not tend to happen in real life by a person from Country A dressing up like a person from County B and just walking up to & offing a person from Country C.

It's clownshoes how easy that is to do in Darkon, and it makes for uninspiring & childishly simplistic gameplay.

It's also quite OP, especially since you need at least a full minute of interaction with someone to even have a CHANCE to detect disguise, and then only if you have the ability AND are above their rank. Anything else, any other countermeasure, gets derided as metagaming.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Isawa Ryuu » 2012-12-29

It’s an unrealistic assertion that wars are started by disguise. Regardless how we try to conjure the idea of perfect RP it never happens and no player in this game does it. OOC senses seep into IC all the time either knowingly or unconsciously. That is why we often ask others avoid telling us anything our characters shouldn’t know unless it is after the fact or vital to game mechanics. Why do we have gaseous form instead of invisibility? Why do not know have a sneak skill or a camouflage ability for rangers and thieves? There is no silent walk or such nonsense because they do not work. The skills we have tend to be mechanical toward the rules except for a few such as disguise. We are not telling people they don’t know something, players just have to respond to it according to the rules despite what they know.

This is because we try eliminating that factor where we know players cannot avoid transferring OOC and IC knowledge. Besides the lines can be so blurred it leaves certain situations completely up interpretation. Side A claims a situation is OOC knowledge and side B will claim it’s IC due to bias of perspectives.

Has a war ever been started over disguise? Maybe, but I have never seen it or heard of such an incident. I would like to hear some specific examples if anyone refutes validity of the assertion that no war has ever caused by disguise. However, what I have seen was the person in disguise, forced players not be able to accuse the offender or his country of any crimes. Furthermore, I have seen people RP out of the situation where disguise could have caused a war. There have been good setups for framing countries, but in the case of disguise, to my knowledge, has never done it.

However, if there are specific examples, I would love to hear them.

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Snudge » 2012-12-29

It hasn't been done, but the notion that its there exists. New Mordom has said assassination is cause for us to declare war, say I disguise as an elidorian and assassinate someone from new mordom and let them see me do it. New Mordom declares on elidor, west vs east world war begins. Just an example, I can't assassinate, but you get the idea.

The measure is punitive for characters, "character A" does something snudge doesn't like. Steals in the thieves guild territory, won't pay to operate, kills one of its members etc etc. He takes out a hit on that character because he wants them dead. The player has nothing to do with the punitive choice. As for strategic, that is always the goal of having a cleric assassinated. One less person to res for the opposing team. But that one hour window means nothing, the player of that cleric goes and sits in camp and it just like getting lunch break. Then boom back on the field, that to me is cheese. However if they are dead for 12-24 hours that means something.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Isawa Ryuu » 2012-12-29

In a perfect RP scenario I would agree with you, but Elidor and NM would work things out and war would be averted. I can promise that because OOC we know that wars can hurt friendships, and the can cost a country so much in time and resources both OOC and IC. When NM gets ready for a war, there is a sense of hostility that is worked up in preparation for war. It’s just too hard for a group to get pumped up without the added OOC element.

I suspect it could happen if the two sides both hated each other and were LOOKING for a reason to strike such as NM just needing some kind of IC reason, or they were doing it completely as a means to have fun. The first scenario is realistic. I just don’t see it happening ever. Now if someone set Nurgle up, MAYBE that would work. :P

I can’t say I am speaking for NM in this case, but I am pretty sure every country would follow the same pattern.

So is someone reading planning to set Nurgle up to test this idea! :)

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Ericson » 2012-12-29

Snudge wrote:It hasn't been done, but the notion that its there exists. New Mordom has said assassination is cause for us to declare war, say I disguise as an elidorian and assassinate someone from new mordom and let them see me do it. New Mordom declares on elidor, west vs east world war begins. Just an example, I can't assassinate, but you get the idea.


And game attendance rises to 250 every event for duration of the war. Sounds like a great idea to me.

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Inox » 2012-12-30

Snudge wrote:It hasn't been done, but the notion that its there exists.


So, the major justification for this aspect of the ability existing has never, in 2+ decades, come to pass.

However, in that same time, it's been the cause of countless cheesy walk-in-and-stab talentless hits that create a lot of butthurt and add nothing to the overall story of the game.

Snudge wrote:But that one hour window means nothing, the player of that cleric goes and sits in camp and it just like getting lunch break. Then boom back on the field, that to me is cheese. However if they are dead for 12-24 hours that means something.


It's not cheesy to get to play the character you chose to play when you showed up, that you dressed up for specifically, and that you paid money to get to play. It's cheesy to allow taking away that choice from a player for an entire game day to be too easy.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Isawa Ryuu » 2012-12-30

So, the major justification for this aspect of the ability existing has never, in 2+ decades, come to pass.


That was the point I was alluding too, but had not gotten a chance to add. I just feel that argument for disguise is weak when it has not been used in practice since this game started in the 80’s, yet this argument continues to be used.

A solid argument for disguise as it currently is played is how people have used it to as members of other countries for role play reasons. NM has members that have playfully gotten rank because over the years they play a unique character of our country while using disguise. It would be that aspect that would be missed.

However, I have to agree that being able to dress up as members of other countries is silly and breeds too many complications. An assassin should not be expected be caught after performing an assassination while in disguise. With 24 hours however, expecting a free pass to whack someone AND make it permanent is unrealistic. You have to compromise on this, get a better whacking ability with less opportunity to expect a free pass, which does not really happen anyways since I’m sure no one is just offering their back for free without some kind of caution leaking in from OOC (I would not believe them if they said otherwise). Furthermore, I’m sure the victim have clerics or potions ready to save them once the attack is made.

Thus, wouldn’t it be better to get the ability to make an assassination almost permanent that you can run from unrecognized? This means you can at least plan a good attack and escape plan without repercussions. As I said, you can’t accuse the player you know OOC due to the mechanics of the ability, but no one should have to get into some trap of being accused of meta-gaming if an attempt failed or succeeded. I do expect that assassins would not be allowed in camps, but there are so many ways to get into camps or attack targets. I have seen distractions use to great effect to get targets off guard.

The problem I am getting from this thread is. Assassins get the job done, but every time they succeed, their target is rescued. Then fine, that should be fixed because expecting to get a person alone in the woods where no one will ever see the victim is silly. You just don’t want to make the game silly in the other direction either.

Compromise?
Fix the problem by making successful assassinations earned through good planning harder to recover from if not permanent.
Then get rid of a portion of the disguise ability that in theory causes the act of assassinating grossly overpowered.

In my view, this really is a huge advantage for assassinations as I have seen them pulled off.
Last edited by Isawa Ryuu on 2012-12-30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Isawa Ryuu » 2012-12-30

somehow double posted

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by shroom2021 » 2012-12-30

Instead of artificially limiting assassins by forcing them to perform their attacks in certain ways. You could instead punish them for poor assassinations.

1. If an assassination is attempted and the assassin is killed, the assassin loses his character for the day. It is expected that the captors will of course execute them.
2. If the assassination is successful and the assassin still dies, both the assassin and the victim are done for the day.
3. If the assassin is identified during the assassination he/she can then later be captured and killed as per the first rule.

I think this would do several things:
1. Assassins would put more time into concealing their identities, instead of cheesing garb to "fit in" with the host country of the victim.
2. An assassin who is willing to "die" can do so, and possibly take someone with them.
3. High value characters may actually opt to have an armed guard with them at all times to prevent these attempts.
4. Unfourtunately much butt hurt may still ensue because any way you cut this it is a skill designed to prevent a person from using a specific character for an event.

Seems to me that we either have to accept that this is a skill that either has to exist in a way that will probably cause someone to be upset for a day, but may have much deeper role playing possibilities as to make it worthwhile, or a skill that was only really valuable to the older generations of Darkon.

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Inox » 2012-12-30

Almost every time I see Assassination end up a matter of discussion, I trend more toward doing away with it.

I mean, it works counter to what the game is trying to promote.

We want people to invest time in their costumes, put some thought into their RP, and generally stand out as a unique character. Getting assassinated is a big middle finger to the people that put in the most effort.

It says, "Hey, all that time you spent on that class-specific costume, writing out spells in that impressive spellbook, designing that fancy tunic designating nobility of country rank, coming up with good character background and RP elements? Oh, put all that crap in the trunk of your car...you're done playing that for the day because some dude with a hastily-drawn side sash of your country walked up to your unit near the end of that last trail battle and stabbed you from behind."

I'll never forget the bizarro event when Malkin & Croaker showed up as alternate Cavaliers, in blue & white costumes they developed and made for that event. Some assassins hit them cheesily and immediately outside of tavern, with no good in-game reason for doing so. Luckily, Res was an option, otherwise they'd have made all that effort to not even be able to play the characters for a few hours.

On the other hand, the guy who fights with a t-shirt under his chainmail, doesn't participate in the game on a deeper level and doesn't bother developing any aspect of his gameplay – he doesn't care about assassination at all. He just shrugs & keeps playing as usual.

I mean, surely with such a huge and obvious negative effect, the positive of assassination must offset this, right?

Well, there sure is a lot of butthurt and arguments. I've also seen a lot of adventures ruined when the planners didn't take into account rampant assassination frenzies of key NPCs. I also remember assassins going around with clerics after fights were over, and having them Res characters just so the assassin could assassinate them. A huge public outcry prompted some assassins to back off, but the Res ability had to be changed to be voluntary so that this couldn't continue.

So what does assassination add? Or, I should say, what does it add that is so much fun for the majority of Darkon that it justifies tolerating all the negatives? I'm seeing a lot of ill will and frustration and hassles, but I don't see anything about 24 hour kills that recommends them.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-12-30

Isawa Ryuu wrote:It’s an unrealistic assertion that wars are started by disguise. Regardless how we try to conjure the idea of perfect RP it never happens and no player in this game does it. OOC senses seep into IC all the time either knowingly or unconsciously. That is why we often ask others avoid telling us anything our characters shouldn’t know unless it is after the fact or vital to game mechanics. Why do we have gaseous form instead of invisibility? Why do not know have a sneak skill or a camouflage ability for rangers and thieves? There is no silent walk or such nonsense because they do not work. The skills we have tend to be mechanical toward the rules except for a few such as disguise. We are not telling people they don’t know something, players just have to respond to it according to the rules despite what they know.

This is because we try eliminating that factor where we know players cannot avoid transferring OOC and IC knowledge. Besides the lines can be so blurred it leaves certain situations completely up interpretation. Side A claims a situation is OOC knowledge and side B will claim it’s IC due to bias of perspectives.

Has a war ever been started over disguise? Maybe, but I have never seen it or heard of such an incident. I would like to hear some specific examples if anyone refutes validity of the assertion that no war has ever caused by disguise. However, what I have seen was the person in disguise, forced players not be able to accuse the offender or his country of any crimes. Furthermore, I have seen people RP out of the situation where disguise could have caused a war. There have been good setups for framing countries, but in the case of disguise, to my knowledge, has never done it.

However, if there are specific examples, I would love to hear them.

I don't disagree that OOC knowledge makes it less likely to happen, however, I have seen countries start large battles at campouts and siege camps over something that happened via disguise. I've seen that several times. I think the only reason war hasn't happened is that, as many often say, people care too much about their imaginary hexes of land. If they cared less, the OOC knowledge wouldn't matter and they'd simply go to war and risk losing their own hexes in doing so.

But I have seen disguise work up some interesting RP over the years and I'd hate to see that. I've seen it turn forces against other forces at a campout after the two groups had worked together all day long up to that point.

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-12-30

Why all this talk about nerfing a skill that has caused more drama, humor and fun than any skill? I am talking about disguise. Pinning actions on one country through disguise does work at campouts...(wars do not since people do metagame). Humorous characters have come into existence ONLY through disguise, Sgt. Snappy of Mordom and Bob the Gate keeping Begger of Dai-Dagan, the Burlap Knight....

Yet a skill that is used to GRIEF other players is still a cause of concern an no one has done anything about it...

Sorry it makes no sense to me.
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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by Isawa Ryuu » 2012-12-30

Sorry it makes no sense to me.


It makes perfect sense; it's all about politics! Those who control senate, control the rules! :D

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Re: A proposal for arguement & assassins!

Post by TitusV » 2012-12-31

It is clear that we will not come to an agreement on this subject any time soon. I propose the following.

Implement a rule that forces Darkon to come to a decision by the end of 2013. The rule would be punitive in nature. If the senate can't come to an agreement by Jan 1st 2014 all players lose 10% of their levels. Mages, since they are the magic creators, lose an additional 10% of their spell points since they have so many. If this doesn't work we obviously failed as Darkon so we should start over. We can call the new game Flarkon or something similar.

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