Crown War Clarification

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Lord Dubh
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Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-01-12

The Magistrate has the authority to clarify rules. However, some aspects of the current rules are contrary to the rules as they are written and and are not making any clarifications.

If any Prince challenges to fight for King and is approved by the NC to fight then that fight is to be resolved before any Crown War can be called by another Knight. If a Crown War is called before any Prince declaires thier intention to challenge for King then the Crown War will be resolved 1st. If two Princes both challenge and are both approved for title increase threw a ring fight then they both will be allowed to fight the King in the order of the challenges being presented in writing to the NC. The NC will decide when the fights occur by vote. If only one defeats the King then they become the King after both fights are done - if they both manage to defeat the King then they will fight each other in the ring for rulership.


This is patently in violation of the rule as it is written and its intent.

1) NO ONE needs approval of the NC to challenge the High King, if that were the case it would be in the rules.
2) There is NO rule that states that a Prince is given some sort of immunity from anyone else challenging the High King at the same time.
3) The whole multiple Prince thing is simply fabrication.
4) This is not a clarification, it is a rule change.

I am highly disappointed, as I wrote this rule and vetted it through the NC before going to Senate. May have been good to discuss this before posting it.

Crown War:
The rules for invasions and sieges in the Land Rules apply to Crown War. If two or more knights challenge the High King by single combat (a noble tournament ring fight), there will be a Crown War instead.


The above is the only clarification the rule needed in regards to Crown War. Everything else is how it is...
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Lord Cailen Sendor
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-01-12

John I understand you believe you passed something with the meaning you intended but the problem is that the way it is currently written in the rule book is not as clear to me as you intend

per the following:
"The  High  King  and  the  Challenger  also  have  the   option  to  ask  for  single  combat.  Single  combat  will  be   a  tournament  fight  per  the  rules  of  the  Noble  Council.   If  this  option  is  refused  both  parties  will  have  to  fight   in  a  Crown  War."

the only time the rules state who is to be called "the challenger" is per the following:
"When  “Lay-­‐On”  is  called,  any  and  all  armies  may  fight   as  they  choose,  as  well  as  make  and  break  alliances  as   they  choose,  until  there  is  one  obvious  knight   controlling  the  field.  In  order  to  gain  or  retain  the   High  King  title,  knights  vying  for  this  position  must  be  
present  and  on  the  field  when  lay  on  is  called,   however  they  need  not  be  alive  at  the  end  of  the   battle  to  emerge  victorious  (it  is  assumed,  they  have   resurrecting  clerics  somewhere)  If  the  victor  of  this   battle  is  the  High  King  or  the  High  King’s  army,  the   Crown  War  is  finished  and  the  incumbent  will  remain   High  King.  If  the  High  Kings  army  loses,  the  victorious   army  must  state  for  whom  they  are  fighting,  this   knight  becomes  the  challenger  and  a  siege  battle  
occurs  immediately. "


so the issue becomes the following: no where in the rules does it clearly state any knight that calls a crown war is the offical challenger or should be treated as "the challenger" rather it states someone becomes "the challenger" only after winning the 1st open feild fight and with the support of the remaining people on the feild

the additional issue here is that the paragraph stating the following eludes that any challenger and sitting King can agree to have a personal fight to determine who is King:
The High King and the Challenger also have the option to ask for single combat. Single combat will be a tournament fight per the rules of the Noble Council. If this option is refused both parties will have to fight in a Crown War.

I think your intention is that this can happen any time with both of them never calling a crown war and that if after they discuss and agree to a personal challenge fight any other knight can state "wait I also want to be King" which by your ruling would instantly push the issue to a crown war


I think the way the whole thing is written is not clear at least to me and hell I am the only player in the game that has actually called a crown war... but as I said I am open to discussion on my ruling and I can see how you in your head clearly understand what is written in the rules in the way you wrote it but understand please that to make it have the intention you intend "for any knight and the king to have the right at any time to have a personal combat with the outcome of that tournament dictating who is King without ever having or calling a crown war" that text is no where in the rules as they are written.

And yes we have one year to work this out before the next one thank goodness :)

and it is in the rules if you are a prince and wish a title increase to be your next step to king you have to petition for the right to get a ring fight ... the difference here is that if the NC approves the title increase for the Prince the king can not refuse the ring fight pushing it to a crown war - it is locked in and the king must fight

rather the crown war method for advancement does not require NC approval and can be also done as a prince or by any knight the difference here is that the king can refuse the challenge which would escliate it to a crown war ... two different - seperate ways to challenge
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-01-12

Thank you john for bring up part of the prince challenging issues and them not having any protection per the current rules ... my intention as started was to do something that is fair - I have removed my clairifaction specific to crown wars and for now am not doing any clairification on it at all. It will be 10 months until it could be a issue... below was my inital post about how I was going to handle it in what I thought would be a fair way

"Crown War:
Previous Presdential ruling and what that ruling meant:
"The rules for invasions and sieges in the Land Rules apply to Crown War. If two or more knights challenge the High King by single combat (a noble tournament ring fight), there will be a Crown War instead."

I wish to make one thing clear reguarding this as there has been discussions in the past on this. Per the current rules only a challenger can challenge the King to personal combat according to the rules to become King and no player is considered a challenger until they 1st win the field fight after staging a crown war or being in a crown war and disposing both the current king AND the knight who orignally called the crown war if it was not them. In addition any Knight can call a Crown War. This is the text I am refering to:

"When “LayOn” is called, any and all armies may fight as they choose, as well as make and break alliances as they choose, until there is one obvious knight controlling the field...If the victor of this battle is the High King or the High King’s army, the Crown War is finished and the incumbent will remain High King. If the High Kings army loses, the victorious army must state for whom they are fighting this knight becomes the challenger and a siege battle occurs immediately. The High King will reform his army within
Tarimstadt castle at which point the challenger may lay siege...The High King and the Challenger also have the option to ask for single combat. Single combat will be a tournament fight per the
rules of the Council. If this option is refused both parties will have to fight in a Crown War."

The other way to become King is to challenge by petitioning the NC for the right to advance from Prince to King then with the NC approval a tournament is arranged.

Here is where the previous ruling could become a issue. I see it as a way to prevent a Prince to have single combat with the King for rulership after they were approved a title increase by the NC. Any knight not liking that Prince could call a Crown War then side with the King in that War bypassing the right of the Prince to have the right to fight. Therefore I will make the following specific ruling on this (which only can hurt my current position as King but I believe is the right thing to do)

If any Prince challenges to fight for King and is approved by the NC to fight then that fight is to be resolved before any Crown War can be called by another Knight. If a Crown War is called before any Prince declaires thier intention to challenge for King then the Crown War will be resolved 1st. If two Princes both challenge and are both approved for title increase threw a ring fight then they both will be allowed to fight the King in the order of the challenges being presented in writing to the NC. The NC will decide when the fights occur by vote. If only one defeats the King then they become the King after both fights are done - if they both manage to defeat the King then they will fight each other in the ring for rulership.

This is the only fair way I see to all involved - it prevents people challenging as a response to others challenging 1st as a response to keep the current King in power. My ruling on this means that as King I will have to do more to keep my title and and there are more ways to challenge indivually to rule which I will have to defend against. I am open to any discussion on this from both the NC and anyone in game who does not believe this is the best way to rule on this. But this is my intention which is to be fair to those willing to challenge to Rule in a way which is unbiased and allows the best outcome for all involved."

As I have stated there are issues with this wording and even during the 1st crown war these issues came to light with little to no exact wording available on it that to me was suitable. Hopefully we as a club can learn a lil from our 1st War and get better wording on the War and Johns intention to have anyone being able to challenge the king without ever calling a crown war if and only if the sitting king agreed to it which is not clearly written in the rules as they are now.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-01-12

You want to add or change things, do it the right way and put in a proposal.

What is frustrating to me is that you and I already had this conversation and I told you then that you were incorrect. Yet the first chance you got you tried to change it using authority provided by the club.

These rules went through 3 years of review, with the final year being the NC. Yes, one aspect was a bit confusing and the wording needs to be adjusted. That was my clarification. But the additional controls you were attempting to add via 'clarification authority' were not ever intended.

As much as it may frustrate you. I, nor anyone else, need the NC permission to challenge the High King, be it a ring fight or Crown War. The intent really is to allow any Knight of the Realm a chance to be High King, which is NOT the highest honor a Knight of the Realm can have but is an In-Character, role playing position. It is not an award for services you have done as you think or want it to be.

So again, you want to add some special rules for Princes or make it harder for others to challenge for High King give it a go.

There are few things about this game I care about anymore, but I do care about this...

I will help anyone re-write sections to make it clearer if they feel it is needed. I will also fight anyone that tries to make these rules for complicated or tries to change the rules to make it harder for certain people to become High King.

I look forward to your proposals on this subject.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-01-12

John 2 things

I have no intention of making it harder for anyone if you read what I wrote it only makes the 1st person who steps forward to challenge for King actually get that chance to get King reguardless of who that player is and the level they are currently in nobility.

Second yes this wording needs to be worked out and I am not pushing to try to change anything as the 1st thing I am doing, as magistrate rather I am going step by step as needed to address what needs to be done - 1st meeting is now announced and as part of taking over the volunteer role I am required to analize what rulings you made and either continue those rulings or not continue them. You are taking this as some sort of personal attack and as I have written and as I will continue to write we all have the best interest of the organization at heart and we need to work together.
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Inox » 2013-01-12

My 2 gold:

I think that if a Prince is approved to fight for the position of King by the NC, this should happen before a Crown War. I can't think of any good reason why we'd want to allow a random Knight's challenge to prevent a scheduled NC ring fight, and then potentially delay it 6 mos.

Note that the Prince fighting a High King is NOT a Crown War, and as such, doesn't prevent a Crown War challenge immediately after (e.g. this past fall).
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-01-14

Kevin,

Under what circumstance do you see a Prince asking the NC permission to fight for High King? No one else has to ask...why would a Prince? What does timing with the Order of the Sword or Title fights have to do with it (though I do agree everything should be done to keep the High King fight and other fights separate)?

The failing in all of this is that some do not seem to understand that High King is NOT a reward like Prince and below. You don't get to be High King because your a good guy and did lot's of work. You get to be High King because 1) You walked up to the current High King, called him out and won. 2) Rallied an army, declared war and took it from him.

Pat,

I do not feel in anyway you are attacking me, so I do not consider your actions a personal attack. What I saw your post as was an usurpation of the authority of the Senate. All my other actions are the result of months of frustration in discussing these very issues and how you have mishandled everything, from your loss in the ring to your victory in the field.

What I have not stated openly and probably should have is my frustration with your lack of understanding of the position of High King. You actually believe you deserve it because of your years of dedication and work within the club and if you were Tarim or Keldar that would be true. However, with the passage of the current rules the concept of the King being a service reward went out the window. The current rules made the position of the High King one of role-play only, with two methods of getting the title (see above.) Also, your declaration of a Crown War was so contrary to the spirit of the position of High King that even now I am only half-hearted about your victory.

I think your lack or refusal to understand the concept of the High King and my disappointment in your handling of the ring fight and Crown War has dampened my enthusiasm for the role-playing aspect of the Royal Court. Added to what I saw as an attempt for you to change the system to something that only appeared to benefit you, and my gasket popped.

So in close, I apologize for coming off so hard in e-mail and forums and I will remove myself from the conversation until a proposal for changes is made, from any source, or enough time has passed that I am cooler and less likely to pop again.
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-01-14

John you fail to realize as a Prince you have the right to petition the noble counsul like any title advancement for aproval to fight in the ring. If you go this route which is the old way to King and are approved then the King has no option and has to fight you in the ring - as King you do not have a option to refuse this fight nor do you have the option to push it to a crown war.

And although you believe that the high King position is not still a "reward" as you put it but you clearly state that the prince position and below is some sort of reward does not make a ounce of sense. Please realize for some it is both a reward and a honor in and out of character to hold this position. You have proposed and made rules which allow any knight to challenge for King which is fine using the Crown War system but you fail to realize even now Crown Wars are not the only way to rise to King. The old system is still in place and still being used by some including myself. I made my orignal challenge to King as a simple Prince title increase to King threw a NC approved ring fight which was petitioned for and approved. That manner of challenge for King is still in place AND is seperate from the crown war option which I exercized after the ring fight was concluded.

To be clear any knight can call a crown war - challenge the king to personal combat in he ring once they are designated as the official challenger - and the king has the right to refuse it pushing it to have to be settled at the castle between armies

Or

any prince that is eligible to a title increase can petition for the right to personal combat in the ring to gain the title increase which has to be petitioned for and approved by the NC and can not be refused by any sitting King on any grounds( once approved by the NC) - They may allow the fight to be conducted at both players ability to conduct the fights as long as the players agree or if the King is unable to fight for some reason he may appoint a champion to fight in his place which has been done in the past but the fight has always been done within a reasonable and acceptable time frame. The new crown rules have not removed this manner to obtain king rather they only provide a new and different way to become king that was not available in the past

again to be clear these are two different manners to challenge for king and both have different options and requirements attached to them but both if successful allow the player to obtain a higher title (only in one case it is a temporary title increase with ongoing title increases if they remain in the position- in the other case it is a perminate title increase as long as they were a prince before they became king the result that after they are no longer king they become an arch duke)
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-01-14

During an off-line conversation it was realized that many people on the NC right now were not part of the discussions that made these rules a reality. This means that they do not know the intent of the rules and some of the changes were made on the fly and wording is poor.

For example: When the rules were presented to the NC the ONLY way to become High King was via a Crown War. At the NC meeting it was decided that we should also allow for ring fights. The wording was thrown together but the intent was EITHER/OR. Either a Knight of the Realm could challange the High King to a ring fight (single combat) OR a Crown War.

I have already been working on the proposal to clarify the fight itself and will be posting in the next couple days to include the clarification of intent.
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-01-14

Thank you John as currently the intent did not make its way to the wording.
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Kobalos » 2013-01-14

Lord Cailen Sendor wrote:Thank you John as currently the intent did not make its way to the wording.


Luckily, 2012, the year of RAW, has come to a close. /troll :twisted:
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-01-14

:)
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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-01-16

You actually believe you deserve it because of your years of dedication and work within the club and if you were Tarim or Keldar that would be true. However, with the passage of the current rules the concept of the King being a service reward went out the window. The current rules made the position of the High King one of role-play only, with two methods of getting the title (see above.) Also, your declaration of a Crown War was so contrary to the spirit of the position of High King that even now I am only half-hearted about your victory.


Made plain in this post: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=545


I was really into the whole crown thing as a means to further role play as well... I am pretty over it right now. The clutching and grabbing at perceived power and selling out of good people's pride to get to a goal, have pretty much made me take a step back. Well said John. It needed to be.

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Re: Crown War Clarification

Post by Inox » 2013-01-21

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
You actually believe you deserve it because of your years of dedication and work within the club and if you were Tarim or Keldar that would be true. However, with the passage of the current rules the concept of the King being a service reward went out the window. The current rules made the position of the High King one of role-play only, with two methods of getting the title (see above.) Also, your declaration of a Crown War was so contrary to the spirit of the position of High King that even now I am only half-hearted about your victory.


Made plain in this post: http://www.darkon.org/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=545


I was really into the whole crown thing as a means to further role play as well... I am pretty over it right now. The clutching and grabbing at perceived power and selling out of good people's pride to get to a goal, have pretty much made me take a step back. Well said John. It needed to be.

Seb


Agreed 100%. Note the rarity of John, Seb, and I all agreeing on something without reservation.
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