Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bellum

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-05

On second thought... if you would be content to cleanse Darkon of rule-breakers on a permanent basis then; yes, it would be possible and easy to do. Just expect smaller turn-outs in the long run once the purges begin.... and perhaps either another game cropping up or a migration to currently established games.


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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-06

fingers630 wrote:no cosign for me. I have a kid who has looked forward to paying Thrush back for a thumb injury at practice for 4 years now. he is bigger than a lot of 18 year olds out on the field, responsible, and can handle his own *. not to mention his father plays the game so there is no need to worry about fake waiver signs.

there has not been a problem with 16yr olds fielding for the almost 20 years ive been in game now, i see no need to put an 18+ cap on it now.


Get him out there soon. lol Jump the rule.

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-06

Sir Caetrel wrote:I'd be more interested in a list of people who started playing when under 18. Probably most of us.

I am vehemently against this.


Dude, you're dating yourself. When you started kids still played outdoors and parents didn't sue EVERYONE for EVERYTHING. I for one, started fighting when I was 18. America now is unrelated to America when you started. Or when I started. When you started not many people had pagers, when I started next to no one had cell phones. Now everyone has to update facebook from their phone at Darkon events... Think about that for a sec. It's weird.

Over 18 is a totally flawless Cover Your Ass move.

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-06

Zodiac89 wrote:Most 16 year olds know plenty of expletives from their friends, family or tv, and if they have a computer device and functional internet, they most likely are pretty familiar with "nudity" (cough pronz cough). Granted, randomly seeing boobs or a dude's junk waving around aren't exactly fun for most people, but * happens. And how exactly do you propose we rein in drunkenness? A vote to ban alcohol from camp outs would never pass, and if you flat out said, "no more booze", attendance would take a huge dive. At best you would have to settle for, "no fighting if you've had more than X drinks/no drinking past XX:YY time".

To summarize, I agree with Fingers in that certain behaviors need to be curtailed, but unless we politely ask people like Thrush to run Security at night for camp outs, I don't see it changing that much, from a realistic viewpoint.


If that happened, everyone would see my boobs and junk 24/7. Eff that. There's prolly less than 10 people in Darkon who are under 18. Don't harsh on my groove for so few of the many. Also, eff Security. Buncha *! lol

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-06

Artex wrote:Done. Sorry That was my bad. I stand by my joke, but I shouldn't have shot off at the mouth on here.


Artex wrote:I have No Idea why I was being such a douche honestly. I'm not normally so agressive.


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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-06

Sir Aethilgar wrote:
fingers630 wrote:I think it is very easy to stop drunkeness at campouts. zero tolerance on it. there are elders and officers and nobles of the game. you find someone drunk and making an * out of themselves, they are banned from the next campout. * people are banned for allegedly leaving trash at a site *cough*laconia*cough*. why do we accept stupid behavior?

why not make campouts 21+? we dont have to worry about policing underaged drinking then. right?


You'd be surprised.

Darkon made a rule once (before we lost so many campsites...); no drinking at campouts. Next campout, a significant number of people got liquored up. After consulting individually with all who were; I, as President, was left with a single solution... suspensions. Six months. Six months with entire countries gone. Six months with 50% or less attendance. Six months where those suspended held competing 'practices' on Darkon Sundays. It was terrible. A terrible rule that everybody knew the usual suspects would not follow with a sentence that only hurt the game in the long run.

So; no, a rule will not stop drunkenness at campouts.. nor will expecting our officers, elders, and nobles to police our member's lack of self-restraint.. or we wouldn't be having this conversation today; it would have been settled better than 20 years ago.

On second thought... if you would be content to cleanse Darkon of rule-breakers on a permanent basis then; yes, it would be possible and easy to do. Just expect smaller turn-outs in the long run once the purges begin.... and perhaps either another game cropping up or a migration to currently established games.


No, a new rule wont solve drunkenness, but if everyone is over 18, it's so easy to solve any problem. They're grown ups... This aint rocket surgery guys. If everyone at an event is an adult (legally, not mentally), then you can just treat them like an adult, ie, call the police if you need to. THIS is why Ragnarok went 18+ except for with accompanying legal guardian (this is a week long event people travel thousands of miles to, don't compare them on the kids note). We went 18 plus so we can just tell EVERYONE who attends the event, "if you * up, we're calling the police, and you're over 18 so you'll be tried as an adult."

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2013-02-07

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Sir Caetrel wrote:I'd be more interested in a list of people who started playing when under 18. Probably most of us.

I am vehemently against this.


Dude, you're dating yourself. When you started kids still played outdoors and parents didn't sue EVERYONE for EVERYTHING. I for one, started fighting when I was 18. America now is unrelated to America when you started. Or when I started. When you started not many people had pagers, when I started next to no one had cell phones. Now everyone has to update facebook from their phone at Darkon events... Think about that for a sec. It's weird.

Over 18 is a totally flawless Cover Your Ass move.

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You were a very young looking 18 IIRC. What about Thinh, Nate, Hoppy and the rest of those guys..had to have been some under 18s in that mix??
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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-07

Nah man, we were all in college. We came from CCBC.

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Inox » 2013-02-07

Some people seem to be saying that we've gotten by so far without any major problems, and 16 seems to work fine. I sympathize with this perspective, since I started when the age was set even younger.

Back in the very early 80's, I saw a segment on PM Magazine (an entertainment news show) that had a clip of medieval foam fighting. The game was Emarthenguarth – Darkon's predecessor. Baltimore was far away from where I lived at the time, and I was too young to play anyhow, but I remember very clearly my longing to get on the field.

Later, my family moved to Maryland, and while Emarthenguarth had died out, I was fortunate to find a copy of the Darkon rulebook in the Columbia Mall hobby store in late 1985. I called Greywulf's number listed inside, and made arrangements to attend my first event.

Today, I'd have had to wait a couple more years.

Of course, today our society is sadly more restrictive and uptight than ever – very quick to sue. It's so odd to me, because on the one hand, society is more tolerant of sexual preference, less racist, etc.. On the other, it's even more uptight about concerns of security and safety.

Back then, the notion of wearing helmets when riding bicycles was absurd in and of itself, but today, I see helmets on children riding 3-wheeled scooters that can't go but a few miles an hour. A brisk walk is faster. Halloween trick-or-treating today is often done in a narrow range of prescribed hours, and frequently in the company of adults. Many children are monitored and controlled in the context of "play dates", rather than just being turned loose to run the neighborhood and roam far and wide in nearby woodlands. Parents wait at school busstops with their children.

In short, the current environment is nothing like when us older members were kids.

I looked up the movies that were top grossers at the box office in 1986. Here are the first 3:

1.) Top Gun
2.) Crocodile Dundee
3.) Platoon

The social culture that made those movies is long gone. Crocodile Dundee is especially dated. Why should we believe that an early way of doing things in-game stays fresh? We did what we did based on what was socially acceptable; it was a calculated risk at the time. Today's calculations are different.

I feel that we should face up to the fact that we have to continually change our rules to reflect the times in which we live. I mean, personally, I don't give a damn about age. I'd like to let someone out on the field the moment they don't look like a small child who'd get crushed. I don't think that's in the game's best interest, though.

At some point, we decided 14 was too young, and upped it to 16. Well, that would have kept me away for a few years back my early days...but you know what? I'd have waited and joined when I was 16.

We should look at what our arguments are for and against. From the 'for' camp, I hear that we'd be discouraging new members and affecting our attendance. I am curious, though; how many Darkonians today are minors? Can we see how many parentally-signed waivers we got in the last year or two, and how many of those players continued on in game for at least a couple ranks?

Because, on the other hand, we can't easily quantify our liability and the potential damage to the game. I have a hard time thinking that if anything did go to court, or end up in the media, it wouldn't be a hideous mess if it involved someone underage. We have a hard time getting sites as it is.

I don't like fear-mongering, personally, and I dislike the idea of having to second-guess ourselves for potential bogeyman liabilities. I do feel, though, that there's real danger here, and as someone who wants to see Darkon endure for the generations of players yet to come up, we should be willing to consider change that protects our game.
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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-07

Well said. Totally agree. My idea to make all games 18+ is actually just to make it super simple to run the games. No "extra" thinking involved...

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-02-08

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Sir Caetrel wrote:I'd be more interested in a list of people who started playing when under 18. Probably most of us.

I am vehemently against this.


Dude, you're dating yourself. When you started kids still played outdoors and parents didn't sue EVERYONE for EVERYTHING. I for one, started fighting when I was 18. America now is unrelated to America when you started. Or when I started. When you started not many people had pagers, when I started next to no one had cell phones. Now everyone has to update facebook from their phone at Darkon events... Think about that for a sec. It's weird.

Over 18 is a totally flawless Cover Your * move.

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^^ This.

Had a kid fall out of a tree while taking down their hammock at the end of a campout... had to be medivac'd. I don't recall his age but believe he was sub-18. He was fine, just stupid. Parents didn't sue.

I started when I was 17 and had a couple squires who were 14. Had to clear the field of brontosaurus before we could fight... but a good, safe time was had by all.
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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-08

-Inox- wrote:I looked up the movies that were top grossers at the box office in 1986. Here are the first 3:

1.) Top Gun
2.) Crocodile Dundee
3.) Platoon

The social culture that made those movies is long gone. Crocodile Dundee is especially dated. Why should we believe that an early way of doing things in-game stays fresh?


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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-02-08

Since kids can come to day events they can still be 'pages'. Just dress them up and send them on errands ;)

I would love to see us become more family oriented but our campouts are in no-way kid safe with the random fights and fighting at night.

Why doesn't someone just put forth a proposal and let the Senate decide. They will change what they don't like and those on the forums will just have to attend a meeting to defend their own version of the idea.
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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Kobalos » 2013-02-09

What, make a proposal instead of bitching at each other and making the same arguments over and over? You're no fun.
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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-02-09

I agree. Its much more fun to watch you all squabble and compare how old you are.
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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Solomon Kane » 2013-02-11

I have a wife and 4 kids , and while I love to bring my little goblins with me to day events, I shudder to think what could happen at a campout. We could let people to bring kids to campouts, but not past X time, usually around dusk when the drinking gets started. There are hotels and motels around that area if they want to bring em.. it maybe more expensive, but safer for the goblins...
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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-02-11

Kids can come to day events, but that doesn't mean they can participate. Dressing them up and sending them on IC errands seems like a recipe for disaster. Dressed up and doing IC stuff means in play... which means they can be attacked to stop them from completing IC tasks. Who knows who is a larger kid from behind or even the front these days? Sounds like a risk we shouldn't be encouraging.

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Re: Lifting The Normal Campout Restrictions on Kids for Bell

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-12

Solomon Kane wrote:I have a wife and 4 kids , and while I love to bring my little goblins with me to day events, I shudder to think what could happen at a campout. We could let people to bring kids to campouts, but not past X time, usually around dusk when the drinking gets started. There are hotels and motels around that area if they want to bring em.. it maybe more expensive, but safer for the goblins...


I'm drinking 24/7 at campouts. Also, 92% of Darkonians drink 24/7 at campouts... also, they have no filter. It's simply inappropriate, and in my non kid having opinion, would make lesser parents of people wanting to expose their kids to our wonderfully colorful language and misbehavior. I think Amtgard is a great intro to foam fighting for kids, then move up to Belegarth and Dagorhir with their 15 year old intro age... Darkon is truly unique and wonderful... But inherently a frat party with a weird dress code and violence. And anyone who says otherwise, hasn't attended the 98% of campouts I have since the beginning of 1999. It's just the way it is... And it's AWESOME the way it is.

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