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Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-13
by Cole McCrae
Change
Mages
Mages are characters who devote their lives to the study of magic and spells.  Mages are permitted to use only white swords, non‐chained yellow, and daggers. Mages may not wear armor of any kind, nor use any type of shield.   Mages can cast the most powerful offensive magic in the Realm.  Mages must wear an arcane symbol to signify their character type.

To
Mages
Mages are characters who devote their lives to the study of magic and spells.  Mages are permitted to use only one-handed white weapons, non chained yellow, and daggers.  Mages may not wear armor of any kind, nor use any type of shield.   Mages can cast the most powerful offensive magic in the Realm.  Mages must wear an arcane symbol to signify their character type.

Or (depending on which is decided to have a clearer reading)
Mages
Mages are characters who devote their lives to the study of magic and spells.  Mages are permitted to use only white swords, white axes, non‐chained yellow, and daggers.  Mages may not wear armor of any kind, nor use any type of shield. Mages can cast the most powerful offensive magic in the Realm.  Mages must wear an arcane symbol to signify their character type.



Logic: Allowing mages to utilize white axes provides additional weapon selection and roleplay opportunities without affecting game balance.

Thoughts?, Cosigners?

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-13
by Havoc
Are you intending to remove use of 2h white?

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-13
by Cole McCrae
No the only reason it specifies one handed white is to continue excluding the use of white glaives, which must be swung 2 handed to administer white damage, a long white weapon designed to be two handed may still be operated with one hand but that may be unclear. Hence the second option of change.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Inox
"Mages may use non-chained Yellow weapons, Daggers, and any White weapon other than glaives."

Done.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Inox
That said, I like Mages not being able to use axes, because they could get a swingable Red spike on the back, which is something they can't currently manage.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Kobalos
-Inox- wrote:That said, I like Mages not being able to use axes, because they could get a swingable Red spike on the back, which is something they can't currently manage.


Except the wording you suggested (which I like, at least for the OP's intent) only allows daggers. It says nothing about them being able to use any other red weapon (to include stab tips). At least as written--not sure about intent.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by fingers630
Is a white sword with stab tip a white weapon, a red weapon, or a white/red weapon? If it is still a white weapon, with a bonus, it would be allowable.

as a mage I have no opinion either way. im fine with mage weapon selection.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Inox
Red tips are always allowed on any weapon which can bear them. The use of the weapon itself includes that. Always, ALWAYS has.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by PadreCaedes
So why no red spikes on hammers?

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Inox
No Yellows can have a Red tip. (p.23 "f a yellow weapon has a thrusting tip, it will only cause yellow damage.")

Guys, c'mon. IF your class can use a given weapon, and IF that weapon CAN HAVE a Red tip, THEN you can use that weapon WITH a Red tip.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Sir Sturmbjorne
I've gotta agree with Inox here.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Zodiac89
So if Mages are allowed to use white swords, which can have stabbing tips, then why couldn't they be allowed to use a white axe with a stab spike? You should counter prop to have white swords taken away from them, if that's how you feel.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-14
by Sir Sturmbjorne
Why do they need white axes with the possibility of a SWUNG red?
I have no problem with them having white swords with stabs or quarterstaves with yellow stabs.
Its the swung stab that personally bothers me.
I also dont understand why they need axes? Whenever there is something that someone tries to propose to change a rule, you must ask "why".

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-15
by Cole McCrae
Just for references sake while we're on the topic of swung red , could anyone show me in the rulebook whereback spikes on axes are mentioned? As per what I can find in the current rules there doesn't seem to be any mention of it. And really as far as Im concerned if we're really that worried about swung red I'd be happy to add a lack of spike in for mages if it would make the general populace happy.

As to the why, adding an axe to the mage weapon selection gives them a different, potentially more interesting, flavorful option without really being better. We added it to druids a couple years back with no problems, why not add it to mages?

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-15
by Magnus
Honestly, has anyone really seen druids being able to use white axes change anything? I mean other than me, I cant think of a single druid who uses one ever.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-15
by Inox
Zodiac89 wrote:So if Mages are allowed to use white swords, which can have stabbing tips, then why couldn't they be allowed to use a white axe with a stab spike? You should counter prop to have white swords taken away from them, if that's how you feel.


Swung Red is generally more powerful in game than a Red stab tip. I am fine with Mages having White/Red swords; that is a good power level and no counterproposal is necessary. Swung Red gets around shields a lot easier, and is also armor piercing - this is similar to the reason we restrict chained Yellows and allow much freer use of non-chained. Chained weapons kill to the unarmored head very easily, and get around shields well.

If we are going to give one of the most powerful classes in the game any additional offensive advantage, let's dial back their killing power with magic first.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Lord Valfryn
I think NQ should all roll mage for 1.5 years. SEE HOW FAST the class gets nerfed, rofl.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Zodiac89
I'm sorry, do swung reds do extra damage or something (hit damage, not, "ow you're swinging too hard" damage)? Are we now supposed to RP our weapon choices based on the psuedo-realistic physical prowess or lack thereof for our characters based on their class? *, if that's the case, might as well say anyone who isn't physically fit can't be a fighter, or a thief or assassin since you RP scaling walls and swimming through moats. A scrawny or fat person wouldn't realistically be able to do those things, ergo, you can't be one!

>.<

edit: according to the rule book, the only time a Red shot does more damage is if you're backstabbing. Last time I checked, Mages do not have the ability to Backstab.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Lord Cailen Sendor
actually according to the new rules reds do do more damage...

specifically 2 points where white does 1

so against plate armor type 4:

the 5th hit from a white sword affects the player with damage

the 3rd hit from a red weapon affects the player with damage

but no - swung reds do no more damage then stab reds

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Zodiac89
Right, that's what I'm saying. Mages may use Daggers, and white swords, which can have red tips. So maybe there's some intrinsic RP mental gymnastics I'm missing, but I don't see the crisis of swung versus stab red that Inox is so concerned about.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Zur BAMC mage
The fact of the matter is that the axe itself doesn't make a single change to the power of the mage as a class. What you are arguing is the backspike that can be added to an axe, and not the axe itself. As mentioned that can be taken out of the proposal if it really is a problem, but you have to objectively consider whether it is or not. When you talk about the stab getting around shields easier, axes already do that, as does a dagger if swung a certain way. The trick to blocking swinging red is the same as blocking a chained weapon, move you shield towards the attack. Even a little movement can get the job done.

When you argue about how much more damage red does to armor, that's what it is supposed to do. Mages already have red damage, why would restricting one form of it make the mage less capable in combat, for that matter why is swinging red supposedly so much more powerful than stabbing red? The only difference is you're getting stabbed from the side rather than the front. It's not more powerful, just different.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Inox
Zur BAMC mage wrote:The fact of the matter is that the axe itself doesn't make a single change to the power of the mage as a class. What you are arguing is the backspike that can be added to an axe, and not the axe itself. As mentioned that can be taken out of the proposal if it really is a problem, but you have to objectively consider whether it is or not. When you talk about the stab getting around shields easier, axes already do that, as does a dagger if swung a certain way. The trick to blocking swinging red is the same as blocking a chained weapon, move you shield towards the attack. Even a little movement can get the job done.

When you argue about how much more damage red does to armor, that's what it is supposed to do. Mages already have red damage, why would restricting one form of it make the mage less capable in combat, for that matter why is swinging red supposedly so much more powerful than stabbing red? The only difference is you're getting stabbed from the side rather than the front. It's not more powerful, just different.


As I pointed out already, swung Red gets around shields much more easily than stab Red. Also, in general, thrusts are more difficult to land than swings.

You have to take into account the combat effectiveness of a weapon within its class. Otherwise, why separate chained Yellow? Why restrict the length of spears a Thief or Assassin can use?

I don't see how Mages need any sort of combat boost whatsoever. They need a nerf, really...and this is coming from a player with a 20+ rank Mage.

Proposing Mages can use White axes, but just not with a Red spike, becomes silly. If you want an axe so badly, play any class besides Cleric or Mage and you're good.

Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Inox
Zodiac89 wrote:Right, that's what I'm saying. Mages may use Daggers, and white swords, which can have red tips. So maybe there's some intrinsic RP mental gymnastics I'm missing, but I don't see the crisis of swung versus stab red that Inox is so concerned about.


See my last post. As you fight more, you'll start to get a sense of how some weapons give greater advantage within their class.

Also, it would be nice to see an end to posts wanting to give primary casters more combat power without giving away any of the imaginary (spell) power.

Am I taking crazy pills?

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Lord Valfryn
Zodiac89 wrote:Right, that's what I'm saying. Mages may use Daggers, and white swords, which can have red tips. So maybe there's some intrinsic RP mental gymnastics I'm missing, but I don't see the crisis of swung versus stab red that Inox is so concerned about.


You are missing game balance. Game balance is about choices. Right now the mage is already overbalanced, and giving them MORE combat options isn't the answer- in any universe(or fantasy realm, for that matter)



Zur BAMC mage wrote:The fact of the matter is that the axe itself doesn't make a single change to the power of the mage as a class. What you are arguing is the backspike that can be added to an axe, and not the axe itself. As mentioned that can be taken out of the proposal if it really is a problem, but you have to objectively consider whether it is or not.


Yes, it has been objectively viewed, and I feel it is a problem. It makes me fight differently giving a mage another form of attack. Anyone who has used a "swung red" knows how brutal that weapon can be. The mage isn't described as "brutal * melee". Seriously.

Zur BAMC mage wrote:The trick to blocking swinging red is the same as blocking a chained weapon, move you shield towards the attack. Even a little movement can get the job done.


If you think that we don't know how to block ANY * weapon in the game, come to practice. We are actually being objective here. People like Inox, Tyriel , Kai and hell, even me. If we got all the * that is tossed around to buff mage... you really wouldn't like the outcome. Not. One. Bit. We are looking at it from a crazy point of view.. you know .... the one that doesn't serve us.

Zur BAMC mage wrote:When you argue about how much more damage red does to armor, that's what it is supposed to do. Mages already have red damage, why would restricting one form of it make the mage less capable in combat, for that matter why is swinging red supposedly so much more powerful than stabbing red? The only difference is you're getting stabbed from the side rather than the front. It's not more powerful, just different.


Different is powerful. Arrows, javs are red damage... just different. Wand of Gartan is black damage... just different. Flail is yellow damage... just different.

Anyone else?
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Re: Proposal- Mages and White axes

Posted: 2013-02-18
by Sir Sturmbjorne
Well said.