Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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Artex
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Artex » 2013-02-23

Defalcone wrote:
Lord Dubh wrote:Please let me know if I am understanding the direction the 5 or 6 people posting in this thread would like to go:

Change magic to make it so that magic does not disrupt the flow of combat and forces players who are mages to engage more actively in the combat aspect of the game.


I think this is a bad idea, mages should continue to focus on magic, not marital combat that's what fighters are for. If someone wanted to play a magic user with more martial combat options, they would choose a druid or warmage. A mage should always attack first with magic, just start by removing AoE and see if that helps, if it doesnet then up the casting time for high level mages.

On a side note I really like the idea of X spells cast-able per level,


We're not saying take everything away from Mages, but there are aspects of magic that needs to be overhauled. Any SPell that can take multiple players out of the game with a red pillow should be rarer than it is or highly nerfed.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-23

Defalcone wrote:
Lord Dubh wrote:Please let me know if I am understanding the direction the 5 or 6 people posting in this thread would like to go:

Change magic to make it so that magic does not disrupt the flow of combat and forces players who are mages to engage more actively in the combat aspect of the game.


I think this is a bad idea, mages should continue to focus on magic, not marital combat that's what fighters are for. If someone wanted to play a magic user with more martial combat options, they would choose a druid or warmage. A mage should always attack first with magic, just start by removing AoE and see if that helps, if it doesnet then up the casting time for high level mages.

On a side note I really like the idea of X spells cast-able per level,


I am trying to come up with a method in which magic is still a viable method of changing the "face" of combats, but without hurting the"flow". I want to eliminate the need to explain anything, by setting up more direct effects. I think moving everyone to using the same armor system is another method of making the game more "metric". As would be eliminating multiple spell effects at one time.

fingers630 wrote:Yep, if only Necromancers existed! Summoning undead, poison based spell balls, last rights, access to spears cause they look cool... :)

Yeah except rusting metal wouldnt really hurt people in leather, so I was speaking more like "my god has reached down and cursed you, * up your armor and shield"

Definitely powerful, but not an autokill.


I will try and remember the Necro in my "Nerdifesto". I liked it because it was yet another class that had mostly combat abilities, and used real armor. (*single tear)


There is another path, if folk aren't looking to adjust the mage... We can just make the fighter immune to AOE at lv 10. I am not a fan of making buffs to fight buffs... but hey.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Artex » 2013-02-23

Lord Valfryn wrote:We can just make the fighter immune to AOE at lv 10. I am not a fan of making buffs to fight buffs... but hey.



I came.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-23

Zodiac89 wrote:When you bitch at people for not having armor, try to remember that armor can be tedious, difficult and expensive to make or acquire, and that not everyone has access to the disposable income necessary to own and maintain armor. Decent garb is easier to come by, especially for those who sew.

The armor/weaponry available to them greatly impacts what people choose to play. Keep that in mind next time you try to nerf the abilities of the classes so they can at least have a decent chance of winning versus a dude in full plate and a tower shield. If you hate magic, and headband armor and want to stickjock and roll everyone with less kit, and for them to have no possible answer for your superior gear and get their asses handed to them on a constant basis, this might not be the club for you.


You're awful new to be telling anyone, under any circumstances, that this "might not be the club" for them. That's as polite as I can say it.

I have zero sympathy for people crying that they need headband armor because they can't afford real armor. These days, with so many people making/selling it on the cheap, and sometimes straight up giving away armor, there's no reason someone can't get some kind of kit together over 6-10 ranks worth of Darkon. If money's so close to the line that a few bucks here & there seems impossible, I'd say that it's time to prioritize other things in your life than playing a fantasy wargame.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-24

Good post Inox I was thinking the same. I love people that bitch about costs of armor and $5 check ins while they are sitting around smoking $8 packs of cigs and talking about clubbing or drinking the night before.

You can make chain and plate for cheap. You can find Darkonians to help you for cheap *cough*Soulo*cough* if you ask around.

As for the other comments, I personally dont see a huge issue with Aoe but I understand how it can be confusing and stop the flow. Id be willikng to "test" removing it to see how it goes.

As far as spell casting goes, if people feel 1 syllable casting is exploiting, Id suggest going to timed spell casting. Ie counting to X, at a predetermined "speed", and then invocation.

I still dont agree with the bitching about steelskin, as we are rrying to get people to fight rather than stand back and cast spells, but if it really is a huge deal, Id say make it the same as Ironskin. Id 100% support that and fighters would have 0 to bitch about.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-24

Right, but many "monks" have an armor less powerful than SS and still mix it up. They do have better weapons, but a staff can be as long as any spear, with a yellow pokey.

Increasing magic shield size should give the mage a good melee option that doesn't give him any real "tanking ability", but decent "active defense"

It's weird how in a way, I like AOE and wish it could flow better with the game. I just really don't like having finished a fight and then people saying a fireball landed 2ft 25in from your foot 3 minutes ago, and nobody told you that you were dead.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-02-24

So you're saying that because people can't be bothered to.know what's going on around them or let people know something happened (when it happened, not waiting until after the fight), aoe should go?
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-24

Hi, you might remember me from the Darkon Facebook Group.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-24

mardux zulammar wrote:So you're saying that because people can't be bothered to.know what's going on around them or let people know something happened (when it happened, not waiting until after the fight), aoe should go?


I am saying it's often difficult (if not impossible) to know that a padded object has hit the ground near you, and you are often forced to stop playing the game in order to tell people that one landed near them. Confusion kills more people than the AOE.

Scenario : I'm in the second rank, doing some mild combat. A fireball goes off to my side not hitting me, but hitting the front rank (who have no clue that it landed there). I have to stop fighting, walk over and tell people they're dead. When I explain this, people all around get confused, kill eachother in confusion or stop because they THINK they got hit, when they didn't and get stabbed. I also spent a good 5-10 seconds not fighting as well. A lot changed because of that fireball, and most of it had little to do with the people ACTUALLY in the blast radius.

When someone gets "arrowed" , it's easy to point at that person and say "Valfryn, arrow!" I know you hit ME, you mean ME and I take an arrow. When you yell "Valfryn, Fireball!" I know you mean me, but the people all around me get stupid looks on their faces, point at themselves and say... am I in it to? As this is happening, the rest of the game is still playing.

Unless you want to call the unintended effects of the fireball (confusion) part of the game mechanic... it needs to be addressed as a poor mechanic. If you want to call it part of the mechanic, it needs to be addressed as OP.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Defalcone » 2013-02-24

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:If it is a problem during battle rule days (two teams especially), the other change I could propose is - agreeing with something that was said earlier - simply make protection from fire (and other protection from ___ spells) castable on X amount per level... And to add my idea to that: Remove spell points from it. Now, if you hate fireball, bring a red cape and if you have a mage on your team, they could cast it on you (unless everybody wears one and they aren't a high enough level). This could happen all day long without them running out of points. This is a minor change, but fixes the supposed issue some of you have.

If we do that, then you will see other spells being used more (and then we really have to start making choices - do you want protection from fire or ice!? Or lightning!?)


Thats a very valid point, Darkon could appoint an NPC mage for anyone that cant one find a mage to deal with them and in return for hard coin, cast protection from Fire on them. Not only will you see other spells used, but darkon can get some of the coin back in circulation.

The idea of spellcasters only being able to cast a certain number of spell per fight is also an intriguing idea.If a X level mage can only cast fireball 4 times per encounter then he should have no more than 4 fireballs in his possession at the call of 'lay on'. Simpler than having to keep track of spell points, plus marshals will have an easier time catching those mages who would otherwise get liberal with how many spell points they have.

Lord Valfryn wrote:I am saying it's often difficult (if not impossible) to know that a padded object has hit the ground near you, and you are often forced to stop playing the game in order to tell people that one landed near them. Confusion kills more people than the AOE.

Scenario : I'm in the second rank, doing some mild combat. A fireball goes off to my side not hitting me, but hitting the front rank (who have no clue that it landed there). I have to stop fighting, walk over and tell people they're dead. When I explain this, people all around get confused, kill each other in confusion or stop because they THINK they got hit, when they didn't and get stabbed. I also spent a good 5-10 seconds not fighting as well. A lot changed because of that fireball, and most of it had little to do with the people ACTUALLY in the blast radius.

When someone gets "arrowed" , it's easy to point at that person and say "Valfryn, arrow!" I know you hit ME, you mean ME and I take an arrow. When you yell "Valfryn, Fireball!" I know you mean me, but the people all around me get stupid looks on their faces, point at themselves and say... am I in it to? As this is happening, the rest of the game is still playing.

Unless you want to call the unintended effects of the fireball (confusion) part of the game mechanic... it needs to be addressed as a poor mechanic. If you want to call it part of the mechanic, it needs to be addressed as OP.
Also consider, what happens if the mage manages to slip around to the rear of the group, it much harder for that group to see the fireballs coming in, and if the land 2.5 feet away I am totally dependent on a marshal to call me out.

Now if that mage had hit me directly with the spellball, I mostl ikely would have turned my head to see what just hit me, saw the mage , and fall down dead.
fingers630 wrote:As far as spell casting goes, if people feel 1 syllable casting is exploiting, Id suggest going to timed spell casting. Ie counting to X, at a predetermined "speed", and then invocation.
Is using one syllable words cheating? or just a a good tactical decision. I really dont see this as unfair. But i also like the idea of a timed count i.e. 1-one thousand, 2-one thousand, 3-one thousand.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-02-24

Darkon is unique in that we can accommodate differing interests and here you are working on proposal decrease those options. Why? To what end? Everything I see in this thread (excepting the Steel Skin and AOE) is designed to make Mages engage in active combat. This is wrong.

Right now the mage is one of the go-to classes for people who have no interest in being in the thick of the fight for any reason but still want to be involved. I do not think they should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a fighter in plate either, EVER. The Glass Cannon needs it glass back (I opposed Steel Skin) but the idea of forcing these player to engage in active combat more just because it is what YOU enjoy is asinine.

I do not have a vote, but I will speak loudly and frequently to those that can to make sure that Darkon does not become a place where only those you seem to consider "real fighters' belong.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-24

Lord Dubh wrote:Darkon is unique in that we can accommodate differing interests and here you are working on proposal decrease those options. Why? To what end? Everything I see in this thread (excepting the Steel Skin and AOE) is designed to make Mages engage in active combat. This is wrong.


To be fair, the main focus of this discussion has been *skins & AoE.

I have no desire to make Mages jump into the front lines. Fighters fight with their swords, Mages should be able to fight with their magic. I only want to see it balanced properly.

Ideally, we'd get the power level such that Mages could function continually as a support/artillery class, without having to worry about conserving spell points (a dubious mechanic).

Lord Dubh wrote:Right now the mage is one of the go-to classes for people who have no interest in being in the thick of the fight for any reason but still want to be involved. I do not think they should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a fighter in plate either, EVER. The Glass Cannon needs it glass back (I opposed Steel Skin) but the idea of forcing these player to engage in active combat more just because it is what YOU enjoy is asinine.

I do not have a vote, but I will speak loudly and frequently to those that can to make sure that Darkon does not become a place where only those you seem to consider "real fighters' belong.


I think we're on the same page to a degree. Note the emphasis I added above.

Since the early days of Darkon:

1.) Mages went from NO armor, to ignoring the first weapon that hit them, to ignoring the first TWO weapons that hit them.
2.) Battles are many times larger than in early Darkon, meaning much more time for casters to cast.
3.) We cut the length of Fireball in half with spell reductions.
4.) We introduced Prot. f/ Fire, so Mages can have their Fireball detonate on them & be unhurt.
5.) We introduced Pouch for Adventure days.
6.) We gave them a whole bunch of other powerful things like Gaseous and Growth.

The combination of these factors makes Mages & their quick AoE really, really powerful. Today's bridge battle was a lot of fun; it wouldn't have been nearly as much fun if a Fireball was clearing the front line every 15 seconds or less. We've all seen those bridge battles...far more time walking to the res point than being in the battle. Mages still killed a bunch of people with Fireball (and Roy used Mending to great effect in keeping his front line alive), but it wasn't overpowering.

Honestly, with Fireball at that power level (no AoE), you wouldn't even have to have spell points.

Also, I agree with you that Steelskin is too much. I'd like to see:

1.) No AoE (for any spell – it's a confusing mechanic, as Murph said above)
2.) No spell points (cast & cast & cast)
3.) No Stoneskin or Steelskin...just let Mage robes count as AC 1
4.) Maybe give them Missile Ward; as characters not on the front lines, this still would save their asses often
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-02-24

Can we please get away from this mage robes counting as armor? We just changed things so mages didn't have to wear robes and be Gandalf if it didn't fit the persona they wanted, and now we have this coming up. I for one have no interest in wearing hooded ankle length robes that come down to my wrists if I want to fight. That's just going to look silly. I can understand talk of leather or downgrades, but try to imagine what people will be wearing if robes count as armor. Does anyone really want to wear or even see that?

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by PadreCaedes » 2013-02-24

So...if two hits is too much, how about bark skin?
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-24

Stoneskin = leather
Steelskin changed to Ironskin

Anything less than that means 0 mages fighting and in a game that bitches about pillow tossing this is a bad thing.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Defalcone » 2013-02-24

Lord Dubh wrote:Darkon is unique in that we can accommodate differing interests and here you are working on proposal decrease those options. Why? To what end? Everything I see in this thread (excepting the Steel Skin and AOE) is designed to make Mages engage in active combat. This is wrong.

I am in no way shape or form for this, as I stated before, magic should always be the primary thing a spell heavy class such as mages relies on.

I am only looking into things that make the flow of the game better, Like AoE. Dont drop skins down to only one hit just bring them inline with the current armor system.

exoduscleric wrote:Can we please get away from this mage robes counting as armor? We just changed things so mages didn't have to wear robes and be Gandalf if it didn't fit the persona they wanted, and now we have this coming up. I for one have no interest in wearing hooded ankle length robes that come down to my wrists if I want to fight. That's just going to look silly. I can understand talk of leather or downgrades, but try to imagine what people will be wearing if robes count as armor. Does anyone really want to wear or even see that?
I agree, a player should be able to dress how they want, and just rely on the symbol of the character class to identify them.

How many mages are there in Darkon? And what would they think of these changes? Maybe someone should do a handout and see how many care to respond. We have had a couple here that play mages but

PadreCaedes wrote:So...if two hits is too much, how about bark skin?
Barkskin is already AC based, I would like to see the other headbands go to this same school of thought, I am not saying two hits is too much.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Artex » 2013-02-25

Trust me, I want to see people casting spells. There are a bunch of other spells in the game that have some fun effects, do good damage, but aren't always insta-kills. Fireball being a normal battle skill is * retarded with it's AOE. Mages have other spells, having endless fireballs is dumb, I'd like to see mages have to pick and choose when to fireball, or it lose it's AOE. Lightning Bolt, and Ice storm might as well just be taken right out of the rule book because no o mages uses them unless it's required for a specific monster. You want a glass cannon? My Mage in D&D can't throw 15 fireballs a day, I have to save those for big fights. I'd love to see a few more magic missiles, and lightning bolts fly across the field. A Fireball should be something of an "Oh *" moment, and not a "Really? Again" situation.

I want to mention again, because it needs to be repeated, people are also straight up * cheating when it comes to casting spells. The honor system has failed. A time counted spell system needs to be put in place. Mind you I play a cleric, I can rip through my spells pretty quick, but I actually read my spells unlike half, and yes I mean half, of darkon with their "yadda yadda there you're healed" *. We've all seen it either with fire balls, or people * their heals, and if you say you haven't you're a liar.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-25

Count to 320 by counting to ten, 32 times . Takes a little bit, even with 1 syllable words.

Count to 160 by counting to ten , 12 times. That is as short of a time as possible for a fully reduced fireball.

Get an elder to record the fastest "legit" fireball. Prove it can be done. If lay on gets called, and a fireball gets tossed before (or close to this number), have that mage produce the proof that he can actually cast a fireball in 15 seconds. ON THE SPOT. That should about do it.

For example I know that Inox and Isawa have pretty fast fireballs. I am also sure that both of their casting times are fast as legitimately possible. What times are those cast in? Because if a lv 10 guy manages to cast a fireball in 10 secs less than that, well... we can easily prove whether or not it's possible.

Even make it part of the "tourney days". Have spell marshalls judge casters contests where they try to rifle off spells as fast as they can and lob spellballs at mock-ups of Thrush. If the judges can honestly tell people when their words are too slurry and make them count over, we can easily train people to be "more legit" and thus take some of the skepticism (just or unjust) out of this witch-hunt.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote: I play a mage the old school way and don't power game the class, thus making me the "useless" minority.


You're obviously doing it wrong. Make footballs and use monosyllabic words in your spells!

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

Lord Valfryn wrote:There is another path, if folk aren't looking to adjust the mage... We can just make the fighter immune to AOE at lv 10. I am not a fan of making buffs to fight buffs... but hey.


This is how we arrived where we are now... Stop repeating retarded history.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-02-25

Artex wrote:Trust me, I want to see people casting spells. There are a bunch of other spells in the game that have some fun effects, do good damage, but aren't always insta-kills. Fireball being a normal battle skill is * retarded with it's AOE. Mages have other spells, having endless fireballs is dumb, I'd like to see mages have to pick and choose when to fireball, or it lose it's AOE. Lightning Bolt, and Ice storm might as well just be taken right out of the rule book because no o mages uses them unless it's required for a specific monster. You want a glass cannon? My Mage in D&D can't throw 15 fireballs a day, I have to save those for big fights. I'd love to see a few more magic missiles, and lightning bolts fly across the field. A Fireball should be something of an "Oh *" moment, and not a "Really? Again" situation.

There are plenty of times when you use them. You haven't even been out in many years, and since you have come out, you haven't seen that much in the way of wars and all. The only time to cast fireballs constantly in a war is when you have a bunch of mages on both teams (like in the crown war). Typically, during wars and boat battles, a lot of mages will cast ice storm at the heaviest fighters because EVERYBODY has protection from fire, thus making fireball a waste of time. I've thrown ice storms in every structure and boat battle I've been in because it just makes more sense and does more overall damage.

Lightning bolt is a killer in boat battles for people who try to swim. It's also great in structure battles when a force is near your gate and have large shields - it's a super fast, short spell, and you can destroy several shields with it very quickly with 0 chance of them being protected from it.
Last edited by Amazing_Iltztafein on 2013-02-25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-02-25

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote: I play a mage the old school way and don't power game the class, thus making me the "useless" minority.


You're obviously doing it wrong. Make footballs and use monosyllabic words in your spells!

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Minority? That's like me... And uhm... Hmm. There's uhm, Cormac! And ah... Wulfie! And yeah... Really I don't remember the names or faces of most other mages. We probably are the minority.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-25

LB rapes my lovely shields.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

exoduscleric wrote:Can we please get away from this mage robes counting as armor? We just changed things so mages didn't have to wear robes and be Gandalf if it didn't fit the persona they wanted, and now we have this coming up. I for one have no interest in wearing hooded ankle length robes that come down to my wrists if I want to fight. That's just going to look silly. I can understand talk of leather or downgrades, but try to imagine what people will be wearing if robes count as armor. Does anyone really want to wear or even see that?


Agreed, stop saying robes, don't make them come back. Everyone just winds up wearing dress, it's aweful for the look of the game.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

Lord Valfryn wrote:Even make it part of the "tourney days". Have spell marshalls judge casters contests where they try to rifle off spells as fast as they can and lob spellballs at mock-ups of Thrush.


I wills then steal this mock up, and carry it with me. I'll put it up, and walk 15 feet away from it in a different costume and fight.

Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

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