Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
Sir Caetrel
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2013-02-25

What if instead of AOE, fireball was single target but you get to throw more than one ball per spell?
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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

Sir Caetrel wrote:What if instead of AOE, fireball was single target but you get to throw more than one ball per spell?


I'm against it.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-02-25

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
exoduscleric wrote:Can we please get away from this mage robes counting as armor? We just changed things so mages didn't have to wear robes and be Gandalf if it didn't fit the persona they wanted, and now we have this coming up. I for one have no interest in wearing hooded ankle length robes that come down to my wrists if I want to fight. That's just going to look silly. I can understand talk of leather or downgrades, but try to imagine what people will be wearing if robes count as armor. Does anyone really want to wear or even see that?


Agreed, stop saying robes, don't make them come back. Everyone just winds up wearing dress, it's aweful for the look of the game.

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Definitely this.

I searched extensively for robes that didn't look like dresses over the years. You have several choices, from what I can tell: You can spend well over $100 on a piece of garb, or you can get something ridiculous and Gandalf-y.

Or you can get the cheapo $20 Halloween costume ones, which look awful.

Everything else looks like a dress, 100%, and the only way to make that look even remotely okay is to wear a tabard over it.

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fingers630
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-25

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:
Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote: I play a mage the old school way and don't power game the class, thus making me the "useless" minority.


You're obviously doing it wrong. Make footballs and use monosyllabic words in your spells!

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Minority? That's like me... And uhm... Hmm. There's uhm, Cormac! And ah... Wulfie! And yeah... Really I don't remember the names or faces of most other mages. We probably are the minority.



I feel left out! Ive never thrown a football fireball, have spells that have rhyming cadence, even if they go over minimum spell length to keep the flow of the poetry that is my spellbook, and actually fight in 2 teams instead of standing back throwing fireballs at people.

I am the 1%
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2013-02-25

So what exactly is the problem with fireball? Is it AOE? Is it speed of spellcasting, or rate? Is it the death effect?

What are we trying to cause? To decrease the the targets fighting ability without killing them?

Is the problem with offensive spellcasting the fact that it takes out too many people at once?

So wouldn't a simple solution be to replace fireball with a spell that cripples a players fighting ability similar to curse? Call it " Wither" , give it an AOE and have the effect that the person is able to fight, but the next received hit causes a mortal? (easily cured with a cure light)

Maybe we need more incapacitating type spells instead of instant death spells?
Ice storm stays as is. Maybe change the name?
lightning bolt is turned to " rend armor"- which breaks any shield or armor that it contacts (maybe all armor and shields?)
Fireball to "wither"- makes the next hit of the target cause mortal damage.

Just thoughts.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-25

Well supposedly AOE is the issue, but only fireball is ever bitched about. No one bitches about Warp Wood, Lightning Bolt in boat battles, or other AOE spells. And yet they wonder why Mages take offense to the Nerfing.

If the legit complaint is that AOE is too hard to track in the middle of a battle, submit a proposal that removes it, and if enough people agree, it will be gone from the game.

I understand the complaints from some about it not being fun to be fireballed every battle. Personally I hate being stabbed with a spear or shot with an arrow every time I wear my ringmail, but you know what, I die, get back up, and fight again next fight. And there is no chance of someone running out of arrows or spears. People that dont cheat run out of spell points. I dont care what level you are.

Im not going to chime in anymore on skins and fighting. I stand 100% against making skins count as leather armor max unless you drop ironskin from the game, and reduce all armor to 1 hit/ 2 hit like Dag. Darkon isnt Archaea and adventures are a very small part of our game. Most day events are form up, fight, die, get up, repeat. All fights lasting 3 minutes tops. Making mages 100% useless in 2 teams battles is something I will never support, and casting 1 fireball if you are lucky before you are dead in a 2 team is not my idea of useful.
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-02-25

fingers630 wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:Minority? That's like me... And uhm... Hmm. There's uhm, Cormac! And ah... Wulfie! And yeah... Really I don't remember the names or faces of most other mages. We probably are the minority.



I feel left out! Ive never thrown a football fireball, have spells that have rhyming cadence, even if they go over minimum spell length to keep the flow of the poetry that is my spellbook, and actually fight in 2 teams instead of standing back throwing fireballs at people.

I am the 1%

You don't play a mage often enough for me to include you.

But since you brought it up: And Fingers.

We are the 20 or so percent!

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-02-25

fingers630 wrote:Most day events are form up, fight, die, get up, repeat. All fights lasting 3 minutes tops. Making mages 100% useless in 2 teams battles is something I will never support, and casting 1 fireball if you are lucky before you are dead in a 2 team is not my idea of useful.


This is what I saw yesterday. Battles fought and over typically before a fireball could be cast.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

fingers630 wrote:get back up, and fight again next fight.


My personal beef, which I'm trying to keep mostly out of a creative discussion, is that I regularly get held out of fighting by a combination of mages, relics and archers for loooong stretches of time. Just saying.

But, area of effect and rapidity of casting are my biggest gripes currently.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-25

I have no problem changing casting times to set times instead of words. Then everyone casts the same, no one is mumbling the same 1 syllable words for 15 second fireballs.

And I almost always play my mage LOL.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Kobalos » 2013-02-25

Here's my awesome contribution to the topic(s) at hand: This thread has reintroduced me to the joys of the "Mark topics read" link.
--Κοβαλος

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-25

Thanks Eric... rofl


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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-25

Artex wrote:My Mage in D&D can't throw 15 fireballs a day, I have to save those for big fights. I'd love to see a few more magic missiles, and lightning bolts fly across the field. A Fireball should be something of an "Oh *" moment, and not a "Really? Again" situation.


Agreed; while one or two Mages may cast Lightning or Ice Storm, we can all agree it's a tiny percentage of spells cast. Fireball is far and away the winner, and it's cast almost nonstop by high-rank Mages.

Even in boat battles, Fireball is king. Sure, you can get AoE in water with Lightning, but that'a a cleanup move. Most Mages are more concerned with clearing the other ship's deck and destroying siege weapons; maybe even getting a sinking timer started.

The boat battle Nurgle fought vs. New Mordom had 5 or 6 Mages on the New Mordom side throwing Fireball constantly. I didn't see a single spellball of any color but Red thrown by a Mage.

Artex wrote:I want to mention again, because it needs to be repeated, people are also straight up * cheating when it comes to casting spells. The honor system has failed.


Agreed. It's the elephant deucing in the living room, but yes. I've seen too many castings I know couldn't possibly have legitimately happened as quickly as they did.

Lord Valfryn wrote:Get an elder to record the fastest "legit" fireball. Prove it can be done. If lay on gets called, and a fireball gets tossed before (or close to this number), have that mage produce the proof that he can actually cast a fireball in 15 seconds. ON THE SPOT. That should about do it.

For example I know that Inox and Isawa have pretty fast fireballs. I am also sure that both of their casting times are fast as legitimately possible. What times are those cast in?


Isawa's Fireball is slightly faster than mine, but I just timed myself at around 17 seconds including invocation line...and that's reading full speed. I would probably be a second or two slower to not run the risk of flubbing anything up.

People need to realize that it's not how fast you can read over it, it's how fast you can read it aloud, clearly.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-25

fingers630 wrote:Well supposedly AOE is the issue, but only fireball is ever bitched about. No one bitches about Warp Wood, Lightning Bolt in boat battles, or other AOE spells. And yet they wonder why Mages take offense to the Nerfing.


As Thrush said, it's rapidity of casting & AoE.

Warp Wood is not the main concern because Druids are not nonstop casting it, and because it does not make you stop fighting. Also, a quick Mending can fix you right back up. You get hit by a Fireball, and you need at least a Cure Mortal (if not a Res) AND a Mending.

If we fought in water more than occasionally, maybe Lightning in water would be an issue. Of course, as I just said, even in boat battles Fireball is the go-to option.

As AoE is both a confusing mechanic and rather overpowering in today's Darkon, simply removing it could solve a lot of problems. We could easily ditch spell points as well, if we didn't have to use them as (an ineffective) counterbalance for artillery.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-25

fingers630 wrote:I understand the complaints from some about it not being fun to be fireballed every battle. Personally I hate being stabbed with a spear or shot with an arrow every time I wear my ringmail, but you know what, I die, get back up, and fight again next fight. And there is no chance of someone running out of arrows or spears. People that dont cheat run out of spell points. I dont care what level you are.


I don't think you can meaningfully compare dying to a weapon to dying because a red cloth bag lands somewhere behind you every few seconds in a press. Simply blocking with your Mage buckler saves you from the arrow and the spear; what saves the front line from the constant Fireballing?

Again, it's just all about balance. The bridge fight yesterday had a good bit of Mage action; it just didn't reach the level of being OP.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-02-25

I know when I was at war with a certain country, I timed certain mages to know what time frames a had with my balastias. One Mage was always at 12 sec and another was at 14sec. One had been in the game for years and practiced reading constantly. The other maybe three years and bought credits back when it was cool.

150 words in even 17 sec is hard for me to do dats why I play a fighter.

There are some good ideas on here and I will think about what comes out as a prop.

If someone would run an event were we are all standing in a foot of water and fireballs only have a direct affect, who here thinks that lightning bolts would be the go to for the mages?

It's just like at acs days the black sword and spears become king.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-25

Once I get some more materials together and can mark off some large "boat" shaped areas, I guarantee we will have more boat battles in the daily repetoire. Tyriel and I were talking about the AOE fireballs yesterday and how much of a difference "fighting in a field" vs "fighting in a confined space" plays a roll in the fun factor.

Everyone knows AOE fireballs on bridge battles suck because you are hitting 5-6 guys minimum with a good fireball. But take that same fireball in a team field battle, and its not as big of a deal. That is why I am removing AOE from any bridge battle I run. Ive heard the masses, and am trying to up their fun.

I don't think you can meaningfully compare dying to a weapon to dying because a red cloth bag lands somewhere behind you every few seconds in a press. Simply blocking with your Mage buckler saves you from the arrow and the spear; what saves the front line from the constant Fireballing?

Again, it's just all about balance. The bridge fight yesterday had a good bit of Mage action; it just didn't reach the level of being OP.


I am comparing the two in the sense that it sucks but it happens. And I was speaking in general 2 teams more than anything as that is the majority of the fights. As far as what you can do to prevent it, have a mage pro fire you? Its instacast between two team fights. I wish I cuold have someone Missle Ward my ass between fights =P

Next event I elder 2 teams, I will count the number of fireballs cast. I can pretty much guarantee it will be 10 or less unless its adventure rules.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-02-25

Warlordcort wrote:I know when I was at war with a certain country, I timed certain mages to know what time frames a had with my balastias. One Mage was always at 12 sec and another was at 14sec. One had been in the game for years and practiced reading constantly. The other maybe three years and bought credits back when it was cool.

Hey, I paid good money for those credits!

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-25

Warlordcort wrote:I know when I was at war with a certain country, I timed certain mages to know what time frames a had with my balastias. One Mage was always at 12 sec and another was at 14sec.


Someone's going too fast. You should hear how fast I have to go to make 17 seconds. It's pretty much word salad, and I'd slow it down a bit on the field. TWELVE SECONDS? No way.

At 162 words fully reduced, that's 13.5 words PER SECOND.

Look at these faster-than-auctioneer celebrities and see their WPM. Do the math. They can't even hit 13.5 per second.

http://www.thisblogrules.com/2010/10/the-five-fastest-talkers-known-to-the-internets.html

Twelve seconds *. Anyone doing it that fast is doing something wrong.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-25

LOL no fear of that here. If I can get a 20 second fireball off my tongue has been thoroughly limbered up. Of course like I said, a lot of my spells have longer words in them too, and Im usually not in a race.
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Artex » 2013-02-25

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
fingers630 wrote:get back up, and fight again next fight.


My personal beef, which I'm trying to keep mostly out of a creative discussion, is that I regularly get held out of fighting by a combination of mages, relics and archers for loooong stretches of time. Just saying.

But, area of effect and rapidity of casting are my biggest gripes currently.

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This is actually really true, since I've been back I'm only good for one or two battles an event because of health issues so I spend a lot of time watching. At Bellum especially I watched Thrush get chain nuked in everything but the bridge battle. That * right there would piss anyone off. * like that is also why I refuse to ever play amtgard. Magic in darkon has gotten retarded to almost Amtgard levels and that scares me.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-25

That isnt a problem with fireball, that is a problem with the players. I used to fireball Keldar or Alfred EVERY battle. Why? Cause they were the best fighters I faced, and killing them was a smart thing to do.

I soon realized after that it isnt fun for them, and I share the love. I dont recall the last time Ive fireballed Thrush, and honestly, I SHOULD fireball him every fight I want to win. Sometimes not ruining fun should come above winning. When people realize this, you wont have this situation.

It is also easy for someone to puta pro fire cape on Thrush every fight. I mean Mages are running rampant like Deer right?
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Artex » 2013-02-25

fingers630 wrote:It is also easy for someone to puta pro fire cape on Thrush every fight. I mean Mages are running rampant like Deer right?


Yup. It's Mage Season, need to thin out their numbers.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-02-25

fingers630 wrote:It is also easy for someone to puta pro fire cape on Thrush every fight. I mean Mages are running rampant like Deer right?


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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-26

fingers630 wrote:That isnt a problem with fireball, that is a problem with the players. I used to fireball Keldar or Alfred EVERY battle. Why? Cause they were the best fighters I faced, and killing them was a smart thing to do.

I soon realized after that it isnt fun for them, and I share the love. I dont recall the last time Ive fireballed Thrush, and honestly, I SHOULD fireball him every fight I want to win. Sometimes not ruining fun should come above winning. When people realize this, you wont have this situation.

It is also easy for someone to puta pro fire cape on Thrush every fight. I mean Mages are running rampant like Deer right?


This is exactly why the Forgotten Ones would not constantly fight newer players at campouts. If we full on Viking moshed the same 4 new kids on the trail for 2 hours straight... their day was gonna reeeeeaaaally suck. This is actually why some people don't like Havoc personally. He's willing to forgo popularity and grief good fighters up to 6 fights in a row.

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