Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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fingers630
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by fingers630 » 2013-02-26

well to be honest its easy to hate Havoc, he's a bit of a dick...
;)
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Havoc
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Havoc » 2013-02-26

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:This is exactly why the Forgotten Ones would not constantly fight newer players at campouts. If we full on Viking moshed the same 4 new kids on the trail for 2 hours straight... their day was gonna reeeeeaaaally suck. This is actually why some people don't like Havoc personally. He's willing to forgo popularity and grief good fighters up to 6 fights in a row.

Thrush
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Just doing my job as line support. I do try to not shoot people 6 rounds in a row.(the one time it happened the guy must have pissed off some deity as shots ricocheted off shields and spear poles to hit him) I've been going to practice and beating on and being beat on by sticks.

Tuesday Night, where you learn to swing sticks better. (shameless plug)

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Inox
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-26

fingers630 wrote:Sometimes not ruining fun should come above winning. When people realize this, you wont have this situation.



This is a commendable attitude, and really, the one all players should have.

Unfortunately, it's not something we can enforce, and the players who generally most need to adopt it are focused on little else but winning.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-02-26

Havoc wrote:
Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:This is exactly why the Forgotten Ones would not constantly fight newer players at campouts. If we full on Viking moshed the same 4 new kids on the trail for 2 hours straight... their day was gonna reeeeeaaaally suck. This is actually why some people don't like Havoc personally. He's willing to forgo popularity and grief good fighters up to 6 fights in a row.

Thrush
berserk


Just doing my job as line support. I do try to not shoot people 6 rounds in a row.(the one time it happened the guy must have pissed off some deity as shots ricocheted off shields and spear poles to hit him) I've been going to practice and beating on and being beat on by sticks.

Tuesday Night, where you learn to swing sticks better. (shameless plug)


i know, you're not always a giant dildo... But sometimes.... oooooooooooo I get mad.

Thrush
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Zur BAMC mage
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Zur BAMC mage » 2013-02-26

I think the first step to fixing the issue of fireball is to change the rules and watch the players closely to get rid of people cheesing their spells. I have no fireball reductions and it takes me 40 seconds at my fastest to cast fireball. The only time i have been able to successfully cast it was during bellum when i was either in a tower or away from the combat. Every other time either I had to start running away/fight halfway through, or Magness personally killed everything in sight and my spell point was completely wasted. Once you can prevent as much cheesing as possible you will be able to see how fireball is supposed to interact with the game given our current rules and we can move on from there.

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Inox
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-02-27

Zur BAMC mage wrote:I think the first step to fixing the issue of fireball is to change the rules and watch the players closely to get rid of people cheesing their spells. I have no fireball reductions and it takes me 40 seconds at my fastest to cast fireball. The only time i have been able to successfully cast it was during bellum when i was either in a tower or away from the combat. Every other time either I had to start running away/fight halfway through, or Magness personally killed everything in sight and my spell point was completely wasted. Once you can prevent as much cheesing as possible you will be able to see how fireball is supposed to interact with the game given our current rules and we can move on from there.


It's beyond that. There is simply no way to carefully observe every casting to be able to get an idea of when someone cheeses it. People have been cheesing it for years because it is easy to do so.

Even if people all took 20 seconds or so to cast, there's still going to be too many AoE Fireballs; AoE is often an overpowering effect with a game our size. We covered all this ground above, really.
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Bors Drakmoryn
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Bors Drakmoryn » 2013-02-28

You freaking people make my teeth ache. WHINE WHINE WHINE. How is it possible that you all lasted this * long in this game, when apparently, WAVES of fire have been washing the field clear of all opposition since time began. Oh wait, I know how. BECAUSE THAT HASN'T BEEN THE CASE!! What I'm really seeing when I read this avalanche of butthurt is "I'm a fighter, I shouldn't have to pay attention to the battle going on around me, I'm just here to fight." Well guess what Scooter . . . you have eyes, USE THEM. I played a thief since before some of the people bitching on this thread started grade school. And I like to think I'm a pretty good thief at that. And I wear glasses. If I can look across the field, to identify who's who, to find a likely target, why can't you glance around to see the same mage who's been fireballing you EVERYTIME you come out of Hades? Wanna borrow my glasses? Do you NEED to run towards him/her everytime you see him/her? Could you perhaps, gather an archer or 2 from your side to pincushion the pest from a distance, like any other rational person might try after the 2nd fireball. Maybe, possibly? Nah . . . it's MUCH easier whining than it is to learn to deal with a problem.

As for the "skins", if there is ONE fighter on this thread who says they can't kill a mage with Steelskin on in a straight up fight at least 8 out of 10 times, I'm prepared to call him/her a liar straight to their face. Period. And the prot capes ARE limited. By the number of actual capes needed for the spell that they have on their person. And they only work once before they must be recast. Both of those things seem pretty limiting, no?

Mages get fireball after getting 36 credits from day events and camp outs. That's more than a year. They get full reduction of fireball at 86 credits. That's almost 3 years. Fighters get to wear any armor and use any weapon after how long? It's 11 credits for full access, right?

Fighters spend a lot of time honing their abilities . . . you know, practicing. Is it sooo far out of the realm of understanding that mages do the same thing? Writing and rewriting their spells (like you spend time making and remaking your weapons) so that they are easy to read and speak quickly. Learning to shape their spellballs, so they don't fly like . . . well, you know . . . a big chunk of open cell foam. You know fighters, you're right. You do have is soooooooo tough.

So, in closing, you are a bunch of great, big whiners babies. Learn to open your eyes and learn to not charge something that apparently kills you EVERYTIME you see it. In short, learn to play the game.

Freaking ridiculous,
Bors

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-03-01

Dear pissy mage,
to kill with a fireball you are required to read from a book and throw a small pillow into a crowd of (most likely distracted) people. This requires 0 skill.

I think of Darkon as a sport, which by Google means, "An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others". Reading a book isn't physical exertion and throwing a pillow isn't a skill.

When you fight against someone while wearing armor, you not only fight that person but you also fight your armor. Sometimes it doesn't like to move, sometimes it binds you up and it always, always, slows you down.

As for the intensive labor mages have to go through to write a spellbook, I think making and repairing armor trumps deleting a few words from MS Word and hitting the print button.

If a fighter is battling a another fighter, you look for gaps to get in an effective shot. That is where skill comes into play. If I wear a headband (Ironskin/Steelskin/Stoneskin/Missile Ward) and I hit someone is a unprotected area, the skin absorbs it. Super Lame.

In closing, if you want 2 hits wear hide/studded armor. If you want to kill someone 30ft away, use a bow or javelin.
Gor Strayhorn
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Bors Drakmoryn
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Bors Drakmoryn » 2013-03-01

You're so cute. You actually think you made a valid argument. Absolutely adorable.

Here's where you went wrong. While being athletic, Darkon is not a sport. Darkon is a fantasy LARP with an emphasis on combat. Please note the FANTASY part of that. That's why you might see orcs or drow or other non-human races being played by some people. Following me so far. Sport, no . . . LARP, yes. And while I can appreciate the physical aspects of the game, they are not the sole focus of it.

On the zero skill part of spellcasting, I can only assume you have never tried doing it. Because only a simpleton would make such a blatantly ignorant statement. But I'm not here to trumpet your shortcomings (many though I'm sure they are.) I'm here to help you understand that you are wrong. As for the throwing of "small pillows", again I must assume you have never tried it. You should sometime. Try hitting a target at range with one. Or better yet, try hitting a specific target, in a group, without killing your own people. Again, at range. Then try doing it with people fighting around you, unable to take more than 5 steps for your original starting position. But enough of that . . . let's move on to armor!

Regardless of what you my have been lead to believe, the wearing of armor is entirely elective. Meaning, if it's soo restrictive and binding, you don't have to wear it. Come to think of it, not wearing armor would probably solve your fireball problem as well. Unarmored targets are much less likely to get fireballed. Of course then, you would have to rely on native skill while fighting other fighters, so that's probably not going to work out for you either. It's a conundrum.

Now, I would argue again about the nature of armor in the game. The making and repair of armor, in my mind, falls into the same situation as wearing armor. Entirely elective. The writing of a spell book is not. A mage without his spellbook is just a guy in a dress, hoping not to be noticed.

And you know how to battle a non-fighter? KEEP HITTING THEM UNTIL THEY DROP!!!!! It ain't rocket science. One would hope, being a fighter would mean you might know how to fight at least as good as a guy in a dress. I could be wrong though . . . guys in dresses tend to be kinda scrappy. As for the "skin" spells, go pick on monks. Leatherskin is the single best defensive ability in the game. Coupled with Ironskin, it's ridiculous. And Ironskin is repairable with one minute of meditation, no spell point required. THAT needs fixing.

So, to sum up, Darkon, not a sport. Armor, not compulsory. Hit them until they are dead. Leatherskin + Ironskin, ridiculous.

Your in humble teaching,
Bors

ps. From your signature, I see that you are a ranger. You do realize you can throw small pillows too. Just putting that out there.

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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-01

Two things:

Since Ben wants to talk about skill, he can stop using a quick kill weapon like a black sword and do all of his killing with clubs from now on.

Rangers don't get offensive spells anymore.

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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-01

Bors, dude, calm down. You have fielded how many times in heavy combat in the last 3 years? Really. The game has changed. You know I've played nothing but a fighter for 14 years now. It has changed, and not for the better. YES, I CAN see the same mage fireballing me every time on a bridge battle. I wear my up to date contact lenses with the correct prescription. But, when the ONLY objective, is to fight the other team, and 1 or 2 mages, can ACTUALLY hold down an entire side, the game is broken. THIS is what we are discussing. It's not an outright hate of magic (that's IN character for me), it is a broken game mechanic, because unlike, old school, honorable, rule following, never cheating, sportsmanlike gentlemen like yourself, people are writing monosyllabic spells that can be cheesed while throwing football shaped spell balls that are accurate at 30 * yards. It aint your grand pappy's Darkon no more. Everyone wants easy mode, we fighters don't have an easy mode (except tower shield and flail).

Be real, yo. Come out and fight along side me for 6 events in a row, promise you'll see our point.

Thrush
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-03-01

Bors,
For the rulebook found online in the Documents/Forms link. Page 2.
"Darkon is a full‐contact recreation of medieval/fantasy‐style combat for sport." Funny I don't see LARP in here.

Iltz,
I would play my cleric but Tyreal is taking forever to get me my new shield, and then I have to PD it some I should be swinging a club or a bar in 3 months.
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-01

Gor Strayhorn wrote:Bors,
For the rulebook found online in the Documents/Forms link. Page 2.
"Darkon is a full‐contact recreation of medieval/fantasy‐style combat for sport." Funny I don't see LARP in here.

Page 9

"Darkon is a live action, role-playing game, also known as a LARP, featuring full‐contact, medieval style combat with foam‐padded weapons."

Could it - OMG - be both?

The rulebook uses the terms "sport" twice, "LARP" once, and "role-playing" many times, after all.

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Lord Dubh
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-01

"sport" was added in the 21st century. LARP was never removed.

Sport is one of those terms people don't agree on. In Europe we would be a sport but according to some official organizations we are not (we fail to meet one of the 4 criteria for being a sport).

Anyway, we are a LARP and Gor knows it...he played an ORC for years.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-01

Besides...if we were a sport we should have bad sportsmanship violations and there are A LOT of bad sports in this club....noobs, veterans and Knights of the Realm alike.
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Gor Strayhorn
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-03-01

Bendor,
That is because orcs are best.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-01

Gor Strayhorn wrote:Bendor,
That is because orcs are best.


HAHA! I found myself looking for a like button.
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Gor Strayhorn
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-03-01

Maybe its the method that is the problem. I know javelins were discussed and so was limited number. Anyone think using bow and arrow would help? Magic Missile does black. Fireball "arrow" kills outright.

This would increase the effective range but requires skill to use.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-01

So far the only 'problem' I have seen identified that needs a solution is the spells themselves. Monosyllabic streams of words should not be a spell. It should SAY something....

The non-munchkins out there have some funny spells.

I do not see AOE as a problem.
I do not see mage spells in general as a problem.
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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-01

I ONLY see AOE as a problem BECAUSE of the speed at which the fireballs can rain down. Back when it took mages a while to cast them, and there weren't many mages, it was neat that once in a while a mage could "toss a grenade"...

Thrush
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Gor Strayhorn
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-03-01

remove reduction from offensive spells?
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Inox
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Inox » 2013-03-01

The bottom line is that magic is supposed to be one of the many elements in combat.

When the use of siege weapons became too dominant, we added a 10 count to dial it back.

With the increased # of mages on the field, and the larger teams, coupled with all the buffing mages have received over the years...well, there is too much AoE death from Fireball. In some scenarios, like bridge & ship battles, it can be extremely overpowering unless the AoE is removed (at which point, those events become fun again).

No one is an actual mage, no one actually throws goddamn fire from their hands. Be willing to give up some imaginary power so that the game as a whole can be more fun for the majority of participants.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-01

Kevin,

I believe you are in the minority. You have made the same argument time and again with no effect. I also know your a smart man, and seeing as you have not put forth a proposal you also know you are in the minority.

If I am wrong and you honestly believe that you represent a majority, then take it to Senate. Pass or fail it will end the debate, at least for now.

I am just sick of every discussion involving magic devolving to the same tired debate. So many other things we can be doing.
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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-01

Gor Strayhorn wrote:remove reduction from offensive spells?


YES! That's actually all I ever said.

Thrush
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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Re: Discussion - Remove offensive spells

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-01

-Inox- wrote:No one is an actual mage, no one actually throws goddamn fire from their hands.


WOAH, woah. You're not?!? Psh...

Lord Dubh wrote:If I am wrong and you honestly believe that you represent a majority, then take it to Senate. Pass or fail it will end the debate, at least for now.


Too bad most of senate rarely actually represents those to busy fighting to bother coming to senate when the rules being discussed ONLY effect them.

No actual offense to most of those who sit in senate, but I'd go with at least 50% of the senators are there because they aren't the "stay on the field from lay on till dark" types...

Thrush
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