Gambesons as AR1

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shroom2021
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Gambesons as AR1

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-02-27

I know this has been discussed before, but with this years winter I thought it would be nice to be able wear my nice warm gambeson and have it count for armor.

Here is what I am thinking for a possible addition to the RB.

Gambesons (Not padded armor to avoid confusion), must be constructed out of at least 2 layers of linen/leather/wool/or canvas, must have a layer of padding between the layers and must present a medieval appearance.

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Artex
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Artex » 2013-02-28

Remove linen, add A Gamebeson bust be stitched in rows of no larger then 1" or in a diamond/box pattern. You need to make it so the construction of one cannot be cheesed.

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Lord Dubh
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-02-28

Sure. Remove historical fabrics from the proposal.

My 14th century gambeson shouldn't pass.
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Artex
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Artex » 2013-02-28

Not my fault you bought a cheap gambeson. Linen would be way to light and easy to cheese. Make the requirements narrow so there is less chance of people trying to make * ones out of quilts.

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Lord Dubh
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-02-28

Not sure what price has to do with it.

My gambeson is historically accurate to the 14th century design excepting the fill. Tarim's is historically accurate including the fill. Your idea would make very expensive and historically accurate equipment against the rules.

Not sure how that makes sense.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-02-28

Get your historically accurate crap out of this game John.

We don't need to look good when we can spend more money on fake stuff and make our rules to fulfill that need to spend money.

And Rob can get his out of the game too.

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Lord Cailen Sendor
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-02-28

I am keeping mine... it was orignally 250 and I got 100 dollars off! ... then switching the buttons to european coins ... had it embroidered ... and adding arming points... why should we try to look good rofl
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Zodiac89
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Zodiac89 » 2013-02-28

Why not wear your Gambeson under your armor? "I don't have any" you'll probably reply. 50-75 bucks at Tandy, some elbow grease and willpower fixes that.
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by jayjay » 2013-02-28

Artex wrote:Remove linen, add A Gamebeson bust be stitched in rows of no larger then 1" or in a diamond/box pattern. You need to make it so the construction of one cannot be cheesed.


yeah, that stuff can just be bought at joann's.
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Artex
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Artex » 2013-02-28

Zodiac89 wrote:Why not wear your Gambeson under your armor? "I don't have any" you'll probably reply. 50-75 bucks at Tandy, some elbow grease and willpower fixes that.


This is true, it's how I got started making armor in the 1st place.

I'm all for padded armor, i think we should have 2 options for AR 1, I'm just worried about it getting cheesy. Over the last couple of months I have really started to learn just how complicated getting things added to darkon really is. It just seems strange to me that the lowest class of armor we have is often more expensive than AR2 I can make a garbage looking ring mail suit out of cloth and washers for 15$ which makes the game look like *, and a dude in a really nice 6-8oz leather armor that cost 200$ and looks great is the lesser of those 2 armors. (I'm saying * ringmail should be moved to AR 1 and only leather backed Ringmail/splint should be AR2... side note)

Gambesons looks great when made right and to have an item that makes the game look better, keeps you warm in the winter, and gives you 1 extra hit sounds like a really good idea to me.

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Lord Cailen Sendor
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-02-28

If you are worried about cheese the fix is simple...

Now the Noble Counsul is responsible for game marshals instead of the Magistrate.

The NC has made a specific Noble be responsible for each indivual type of marshal.

When someone comes out with the intent of using a gambeson for armor (or to cover the spots his or her armor does not cover in the gaps) then they must get the head armor Marshal to sign off on it AND the NC rep responsible for armor marshals. The "sign off" could be a simple date and name written on the inside of the garment that is unseen while the garmet is being worn but presentable for inspection if there is ever a question...

problem solved
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shroom2021
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-03-01

Artex wrote:Remove linen, add A Gamebeson bust be stitched in rows of no larger then 1" or in a diamond/box pattern. You need to make it so the construction of one cannot be cheesed.


Not all Gambesons were constructed with 1" rows/columns, or in diamond/box patterns.

http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-3 ... beson.aspx

This one is a great example of just that. It does use a box pattern, and is constructed of linen with ample padding. From experience I can tell you it is quite restrictive until fully broken in. (This is one of the gambesons I currently own).

http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-3 ... beson.aspx
http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-1 ... rmour.aspx

These two are also good examples. No box pattern at all, instead the padding is inserted into "tubes" of fabric which are then sewn shut. Perfectly acceptable.


Lord Cailen Sendor wrote:When someone comes out with the intent of using a gambeson for armor (or to cover the spots his or her armor does not cover in the gaps) then they must get the head armor Marshal to sign off on it AND the NC rep responsible for armor marshals. The "sign off" could be a simple date and name written on the inside of the garment that is unseen while the garmet is being worn but presentable for inspection if there is ever a question...


That just about sums it up. A breif description of the materials, a note that it must present a medieval appearance and must be approved by an armor marshal for use. We can immediately assume that people are going to bring crap to the field and not get it inpected then fight with it anyway. Or we can rely on the anal retentivness of Darkonians to spot the poor examples and get them removed from the field or checked there on the spot.


How does this sound?


AR1:
Gambesons (Not padded armor to avoid confusion), must be constructed out of at least 2 layers of linen/leather/wool/or canvas, must have a layer of padding between the layers and must present a medieval appearance. A Gambeson must be inspected by both a costume marshal and the armor marshal to be deemed passing.

shroom2021
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-03-01

Because I realize that medieval collectibles is NOT necessarily a good site for historical references, here is a description of Gambesons/Aketons from a published document:

A. V. B. Norman's The Medieval Soldier has a slightly different but similar take on the issue:
A. V. B. Norman wrote:

The gambeson is first referred to by Wace as an alternative to the mail hauberk. Later references show this was a coat, usually made of two thicknesses of linen, padded with wool, cotton, or old rags, and quilted like an eiderdown to keep the stuffing in place. The quilting was usually in parallel lines, sometimes crossing like a trellis. This resisted sword cuts quite well and deadened the force of a blow. It was the common defence of those unable to afford a hauberk. The Assize of Arms of Henry II of England in 1181 gives it as a minimum requirement of all burghers, and of freemen with goods and rents worth less than 10 marks a year. A similar garment was worn under the hauberk to prevent the rings from chafing the skin, certainly from the early thirteenth century when references first occur to lances piercing shield, hauberk, gambeson, and breastbone. However, no illustration of a quilted undergarment of this period seems to be known. An alternative name for this coat is the aketon, from the Arabic for cotton, al-qutun, with which it was stuffed. Later inventories differentiate between aketons ans gambesons, but the distinction is not always clear.

Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-03-01

Additional thoughts on designs:

http://howtomakearmour.blogspot.com/201 ... beson.html

Bendore, I'd not make 'gambesons' AR1... I'd make 'padded' AR1 and gambesons a form of padded.
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shroom2021
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-03-01

Aethilgar, I selected the term Gambeson as it commonly referred to padded armor worn over armor or by itself.

"This resisted sword cuts quite well and deadened the force of a blow. It was the common defence of those unable to afford a hauberk."

An Aketon would normally refer to padded armor worn under the armor.

I guess it would be fine as follows:
AR1:
Padded armor(Gambeson,Aketon), must be constructed out of at least 2 layers of linen/leather/wool/or canvas, must have a layer of padding between the layers and must present a medieval appearance. A Gambeson must be inspected by both a costume marshal and the armor marshal to be deemed passing.


Could I get some cosigns while I draft this for a proposal?

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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-03-01

Sure, I'll cosign so long as the proposal doesn't drift far from the above.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-02

Shroom, make it clear it has to be a vest. jacket or pant like garment.
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shroom2021
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-03-04

Proposal is up for viewing

Dubh, made one final change after I put it up to adhere to your request.

Should be good to go.

shroom2021
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-03-04

Do I need to list cosigners on the official proposal?

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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-03-28

Just want to get a clear confirmation before I try and get on the schedule for the next senate meeting. Have I got another cosigner? I see Sir Aethilgar is cosigning but I don't see another.

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Artex
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Re: Gambesons as AR1

Post by Artex » 2013-03-30

Co-signed

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