The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-07

Is it time we dropped Thieves and Assassins into 1 class, since they are basically the same thing, except one can make Death Class Poison and last rites people into oblivion....and the other is the Assassin :)

Same weapon/armor restrictions as currently
24” shields
Rank 1- Looting
Rank 2- Pick Pocket, Disguise
Rank 3- Backstab, Climb Walls
Rank 4- Read Languages, Open Locks
Rank 5- Find/Remove Traps
Rank 6- Torture
Rank 7- Make Poison (Any type)
Rank 8- Write Writ (Assassinate)
Rank 9- Read Magical Language (ability to cast from scrolls)
Rank 10- Guild Master / Master Thief
Rank 15- Detect Disguise, Rogue’s Pouch
Rank 20- Improved Open Locks, 2 x Writ Per Adv Day, Remove Level Restriction from Torture

Limit assassination to 2 hours, make it so the victim forgets all events of the day and cannot play any other "class" of that persona (ie, I cannot play Fingers the Assassin if Fingers the Mage is assassinated).

Make Last Rites NPC only to avoid 1 stop gak and last rites

Yes I realize all thieves are not assassins. Yes I realize all assassins are not thieves, but the classes we currently have in the game are almost exact copies, with assassins getting 1 super powerful griefing ability, and 1 mostly worthless one (torture). There is nothing saying you HAVE to assassinate people if you dont want to. I play a fighter, and wear Ringmail and don't use greatswords all the time!

Discuss.
Last edited by fingers630 on 2013-03-12, edited 1 time in total.
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

User avatar
Defalcone
Posts: 33
Joined: 2012-01-27
Location: Missoula Montana
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Defalcone » 2013-03-07

Just a word from us guys up in Montana, brilliant.

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-07

Is it that time of the decade already???
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

Volney
Posts: 10
Joined: 2012-03-14

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Volney » 2013-03-07

Why not just say they the Writ made has a magical property that functions as a Last Rites on the target?

With the changes to assasinate all it would Add is the no Res ability.
Lead with the face!

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-07

Believe it or not John, the last time we brought this up, was 2008! So every 5 years :)
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

User avatar
Amazing_Iltztafein
Darkonian
Posts: 548
Joined: 2012-01-06

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-07

Nope, you posted about it in 2009.

After John brought it up. :P

http://darkonsunofficialmessageboard.yu ... TjkGFfkqSo

Gor Strayhorn
Posts: 51
Joined: 2012-06-08

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-03-07

although I have only played a played a thief a few event (well because I have no ability to be discreet), I will co-sign for the sake of simplicity.
Gor Strayhorn
Great Wolf - Battle Leader of Asaheim
Warden and Warhound of Asaheim
First Ranger of Asaheim

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-07

ah we dont count the DUMB, that place is lawless and miscreants post there. ;)
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

User avatar
Thrush Svartehjertet
Posts: 1295
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-07

Seems smart to me. Do it.

Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

exoduscleric
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 41
Joined: 2012-04-10

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-03-07

A very good argument was brought up the last time this came up. If people know you're a thief, then no one cares. You may pickpocket a few people or steal a few coin, but it's not the end of the world. If people know you can assassinate (and crap on their whole weekend) , then they deal with you entirely differently. Everyone watches you. You can't just casually disguise and RP a rogue. It changes everything. Many thieves don't want assassinate for this reason. If they were to use any thiefy abilities in front of people, it would change the way everyone dealt with them.

User avatar
Zodiac89
Posts: 63
Joined: 2012-10-23
Location: In the woods, communing with Nature.

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Zodiac89 » 2013-03-07

Or they could be beardy and wear White. Zero * given.
Barknell: Druid, observing the realm, beholding the beauty of Mother Nature.
Every rose has its thorns, every book, a story.

Never suffer Betrayal.

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-07

Yep, I give 0 * about metagamers. Plus as you see we are looking to change assassination so it isnt the * it is now.
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

exoduscleric
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 41
Joined: 2012-04-10

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-03-07

People would know the general skillset of a class. If you see someone looting (or whatever) , you'd know they could assassinate. You'd know this because A) you could do it yourself or B) you probably have a close friend who could do it. I don't see how that would be considered metagaming. That would be common sense based on things you'd see and know in game. Just as you know mages cast mage spells, you'd know rogues could use rogue skills.

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-07

It is a very fine line. Why would you treat someone differently because they can assassinate you? Oh i know, because out of game, you know it is different from a normal death. IN character, death is death and shouldnt matter.

People who treat people differently because they recognize the potential of assassination are metagamers and deserve 0 respect from me.

I show the same respect to Karsis as I do Talid, as I view them both as killers, who could at any time, end my life should I play my cards wrong. Just because one can do it for a longer period of time doesnt change how I act around them.

Should someone act differently around me knowing that if I wanted, i could fireball them every 2 team battle for a year? Well maybe, cause Im a bit of a dick like that =P
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

exoduscleric
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 41
Joined: 2012-04-10

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-03-07

I see your point in terms of death. I've made the same point in the past (generally in terms of res/ assassination). Unfortunately we don't define death clearly in Darkon. Many players see death differently and there's nothing saying they're wrong. Until we clearly define what a character does and doesn't know, players are saying they know there's no permenant death based on people coming back . They've also said they know assassinations make people stay away longer. I haven't been able to come up with any arguments otherwise and the rules don't solidify it either way. I think that having some solid death rules regarding how characters do or don't see things would go a long way towards fixing some of this. Until then, I can't call it metagaming as it's not clear and valid arguments can be made as to what a character knows in terms of death.

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-07

I think all characters need to accept that our "PCs" are at least "Semi-immortal". I don't care the reason. NPC's tend to stay dead. Like the peasants with polearms and the villagers we slay.

We all know that "assassins" or some comparable type of character has the ability to delay the immortality of PC's.
Image

User avatar
Inox
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 571
Joined: 2012-01-09

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Inox » 2013-03-08

Of course, you do NOT know that anyone who displays a given skill is automagically capable of another skill that constitutes a "class" in the rulebook. Classes are a mechanic, not an in-character reality.

At most, when people see one Rogue ability displayed, they should think, "Hey, maybe this is one of those shadowy killers I have heard so much about..." They should not automagically assume more, especially since we continually encounter NPCs who possess some class abilities and not others; and some of whom resurrect continually just like PCs.

Also, ponder this: Plenty of people play characters where a spell or skill is simply not ever used for either RP or personal reasons (or both). For all intents, it's as if they do not possess it. My Thief never ever uses Disguise to appear as a member of another country. Ever. Because he is a treasure hunter & adventurer, not an actor or a sneak thief. I am sure there would be Rogues that never Assassinate, or Pick a Pocket, or Torture anyone.

Anyhow, Fingers, I really like this a lot. I cosign. Propose this!
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON

User avatar
Inox
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 571
Joined: 2012-01-09

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Inox » 2013-03-08

Also, btw, the original Darkon Thief was a hired killer as well. Here's the 1986 rulebook text for the Thief character (there was no Assassin):

Image
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-08

What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

User avatar
Thrush Svartehjertet
Posts: 1295
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-08

Zodiac89 wrote:Or they could be beardy and wear White. Zero * given.


2nd time in a week someone has said beardy on this forum. No one in the real world says it, so wtf does it mean?

Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

User avatar
Thrush Svartehjertet
Posts: 1295
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-08

fingers630 wrote:It is a very fine line. Why would you treat someone differently because they can assassinate you? Oh i know, because out of game, you know it is different from a normal death. IN character, death is death and shouldnt matter.

People who treat people differently because they recognize the potential of assassination are metagamers and deserve 0 respect from me.

I show the same respect to Karsis as I do Talid, as I view them both as killers, who could at any time, end my life should I play my cards wrong. Just because one can do it for a longer period of time doesnt change how I act around them.

Should someone act differently around me knowing that if I wanted, i could fireball them every 2 team battle for a year? Well maybe, cause Im a bit of a dick like that =P


Yerp, I've always tried to "not notice" class in game.

Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

User avatar
Amazing_Iltztafein
Darkonian
Posts: 548
Joined: 2012-01-06

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-08

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Zodiac89 wrote:Or they could be beardy and wear White. Zero * given.


2nd time in a week someone has said beardy on this forum. No one in the real world says it, so * does it mean?

Thrush
berserk

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Beardy


1. A word sometimes used to describe experienced veterans of Warhammer or Warhammer 40,000 with the same definition as cheesy.

User avatar
PadreCaedes
Darkonian
Posts: 127
Joined: 2012-01-16
Location: Temple of Khorne

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by PadreCaedes » 2013-03-08

fingers630 wrote:What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?


Giving them two writs, I feel, takes power away from the guildmasters. It takes away from the RP already that high level assassins can write their own writ. But two? A bit much.

As for Last Rites, have it be NPC only if the Scoundrel is going to go so far as to use a writ on an NPC, but last rights is a high level spell to just rattle off of a scroll and get away with it. Make'em work for it.
Warmaster Caedes, Kinslayer
Knight of Ched Nasad
Patron Father of House LeDouche

High Priest of Ched Nasad
Vicar of the Church of Khorne
Steward of NorthHold
House Ledouche: "We Bow to No Man...Because We Can't"

User avatar
Amazing_Iltztafein
Darkonian
Posts: 548
Joined: 2012-01-06

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-08

PadreCaedes wrote:
fingers630 wrote:What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?


Giving them two writs, I feel, takes power away from the guildmasters. It takes away from the RP already that high level assassins can write their own writ. But two? A bit much.

As for Last Rites, have it be NPC only if the Scoundrel is going to go so far as to use a writ on an NPC, but last rights is a high level spell to just rattle off of a scroll and get away with it. Make'em work for it.

If assassination is only two hours, though, one writ is kinda nothing and pointless. Giving them two makes more sense. Clearly there will be more assassinations to be done if it only lasts two hours. Giving them twice as many writs as now when the ability is 1/12th as good as it is now really underpowers the personal writ if anything.

User avatar
Inox
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 571
Joined: 2012-01-09

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Inox » 2013-03-08

fingers630 wrote:What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?


I still say, let's make "Torture" into "Interrogation", and make it like Speak With Dead but for the living who are defenseless/unable to escape.

I think we can just add one line to Last Rites: "Last Rites cannot be made into a scroll." We already have Steelskin that can't be made into a potion.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests