The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

[fingers630]

Is it time we dropped Thieves and Assassins into 1 class, since they are basically the same thing, except one can make Death Class Poison and last rites people into oblivion....and the other is the Assassin

Same weapon/armor restrictions as currently
24” shields
Rank 1- Looting
Rank 2- Pick Pocket, Disguise
Rank 3- Backstab, Climb Walls
Rank 4- Read Languages, Open Locks
Rank 5- Find/Remove Traps
Rank 6- Torture
Rank 7- Make Poison (Any type)
Rank 8- Write Writ (Assassinate)
Rank 9- Read Magical Language (ability to cast from scrolls)
Rank 10- Guild Master / Master Thief
Rank 15- Detect Disguise, Rogue’s Pouch
Rank 20- Improved Open Locks, 2 x Writ Per Adv Day, Remove Level Restriction from Torture

Limit assassination to 2 hours, make it so the victim forgets all events of the day and cannot play any other "class" of that persona (ie, I cannot play Fingers the Assassin if Fingers the Mage is assassinated).

Make Last Rites NPC only to avoid 1 stop gak and last rites

Yes I realize all thieves are not assassins. Yes I realize all assassins are not thieves, but the classes we currently have in the game are almost exact copies, with assassins getting 1 super powerful griefing ability, and 1 mostly worthless one (torture). There is nothing saying you HAVE to assassinate people if you dont want to. I play a fighter, and wear Ringmail and don't use greatswords all the time!

Discuss.

[Defalcone]

Just a word from us guys up in Montana, brilliant.

[Lord Dubh]

Is it that time of the decade already???

[Volney]

Why not just say they the Writ made has a magical property that functions as a Last Rites on the target?

With the changes to assasinate all it would Add is the no Res ability.

[fingers630]

Believe it or not John, the last time we brought this up, was 2008! So every 5 years

[Amazing_Iltztafein]

Nope, you posted about it in 2009.

After John brought it up.

http://darkonsunofficialmessageboard.yu ... TjkGFfkqSo

[Gor Strayhorn]

although I have only played a played a thief a few event (well because I have no ability to be discreet), I will co-sign for the sake of simplicity.

[fingers630]

ah we dont count the DUMB, that place is lawless and miscreants post there.

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Seems smart to me. Do it.

Thrush
berserk

[exoduscleric]

A very good argument was brought up the last time this came up. If people know you're a thief, then no one cares. You may pickpocket a few people or steal a few coin, but it's not the end of the world. If people know you can assassinate (and crap on their whole weekend) , then they deal with you entirely differently. Everyone watches you. You can't just casually disguise and RP a rogue. It changes everything. Many thieves don't want assassinate for this reason. If they were to use any thiefy abilities in front of people, it would change the way everyone dealt with them.

[Zodiac89]

Or they could be beardy and wear White. Zero * given.

[fingers630]

Yep, I give 0 * about metagamers. Plus as you see we are looking to change assassination so it isnt the * it is now.

[exoduscleric]

People would know the general skillset of a class. If you see someone looting (or whatever) , you'd know they could assassinate. You'd know this because A) you could do it yourself or B) you probably have a close friend who could do it. I don't see how that would be considered metagaming. That would be common sense based on things you'd see and know in game. Just as you know mages cast mage spells, you'd know rogues could use rogue skills.

[fingers630]

It is a very fine line. Why would you treat someone differently because they can assassinate you? Oh i know, because out of game, you know it is different from a normal death. IN character, death is death and shouldnt matter.

People who treat people differently because they recognize the potential of assassination are metagamers and deserve 0 respect from me.

I show the same respect to Karsis as I do Talid, as I view them both as killers, who could at any time, end my life should I play my cards wrong. Just because one can do it for a longer period of time doesnt change how I act around them.

Should someone act differently around me knowing that if I wanted, i could fireball them every 2 team battle for a year? Well maybe, cause Im a bit of a dick like that =P

[exoduscleric]

I see your point in terms of death. I've made the same point in the past (generally in terms of res/ assassination). Unfortunately we don't define death clearly in Darkon. Many players see death differently and there's nothing saying they're wrong. Until we clearly define what a character does and doesn't know, players are saying they know there's no permenant death based on people coming back . They've also said they know assassinations make people stay away longer. I haven't been able to come up with any arguments otherwise and the rules don't solidify it either way. I think that having some solid death rules regarding how characters do or don't see things would go a long way towards fixing some of this. Until then, I can't call it metagaming as it's not clear and valid arguments can be made as to what a character knows in terms of death.

[Lord Valfryn]

I think all characters need to accept that our "PCs" are at least "Semi-immortal". I don't care the reason. NPC's tend to stay dead. Like the peasants with polearms and the villagers we slay.

We all know that "assassins" or some comparable type of character has the ability to delay the immortality of PC's.

[Inox]

Of course, you do NOT know that anyone who displays a given skill is automagically capable of another skill that constitutes a "class" in the rulebook. Classes are a mechanic, not an in-character reality.

At most, when people see one Rogue ability displayed, they should think, "Hey, maybe this is one of those shadowy killers I have heard so much about..." They should not automagically assume more, especially since we continually encounter NPCs who possess some class abilities and not others; and some of whom resurrect continually just like PCs.

Also, ponder this: Plenty of people play characters where a spell or skill is simply not ever used for either RP or personal reasons (or both). For all intents, it's as if they do not possess it. My Thief never ever uses Disguise to appear as a member of another country. Ever. Because he is a treasure hunter & adventurer, not an actor or a sneak thief. I am sure there would be Rogues that never Assassinate, or Pick a Pocket, or Torture anyone.

Anyhow, Fingers, I really like this a lot. I cosign. Propose this!

[Inox]

Also, btw, the original Darkon Thief was a hired killer as well. Here's the 1986 rulebook text for the Thief character (there was no Assassin):

[fingers630]

What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

Or they could be beardy and wear White. Zero * given.

2nd time in a week someone has said beardy on this forum. No one in the real world says it, so wtf does it mean?

Thrush
berserk

[Thrush Svartehjertet]

It is a very fine line. Why would you treat someone differently because they can assassinate you? Oh i know, because out of game, you know it is different from a normal death. IN character, death is death and shouldnt matter.

People who treat people differently because they recognize the potential of assassination are metagamers and deserve 0 respect from me.

I show the same respect to Karsis as I do Talid, as I view them both as killers, who could at any time, end my life should I play my cards wrong. Just because one can do it for a longer period of time doesnt change how I act around them.

Should someone act differently around me knowing that if I wanted, i could fireball them every 2 team battle for a year? Well maybe, cause Im a bit of a dick like that =P

Yerp, I've always tried to "not notice" class in game.

Thrush
berserk

[Amazing_Iltztafein]

Or they could be beardy and wear White. Zero * given.

2nd time in a week someone has said beardy on this forum. No one in the real world says it, so * does it mean?

Thrush
berserk

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Beardy


1. A word sometimes used to describe experienced veterans of Warhammer or Warhammer 40,000 with the same definition as cheesy.

[PadreCaedes]

What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?

Giving them two writs, I feel, takes power away from the guildmasters. It takes away from the RP already that high level assassins can write their own writ. But two? A bit much.

As for Last Rites, have it be NPC only if the Scoundrel is going to go so far as to use a writ on an NPC, but last rights is a high level spell to just rattle off of a scroll and get away with it. Make'em work for it.

[Amazing_Iltztafein]

What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?

Giving them two writs, I feel, takes power away from the guildmasters. It takes away from the RP already that high level assassins can write their own writ. But two? A bit much.

As for Last Rites, have it be NPC only if the Scoundrel is going to go so far as to use a writ on an NPC, but last rights is a high level spell to just rattle off of a scroll and get away with it. Make'em work for it.

If assassination is only two hours, though, one writ is kinda nothing and pointless. Giving them two makes more sense. Clearly there will be more assassinations to be done if it only lasts two hours. Giving them twice as many writs as now when the ability is 1/12th as good as it is now really underpowers the personal writ if anything.

[Inox]

What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?

I still say, let's make "Torture" into "Interrogation", and make it like Speak With Dead but for the living who are defenseless/unable to escape.

I think we can just add one line to Last Rites: "Last Rites cannot be made into a scroll." We already have Steelskin that can't be made into a potion.