The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-08

Ah good catch on the LR. Can we still call it torture though? Cause torture sounds cooler =P
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

User avatar
Amazing_Iltztafein
Darkonian
Posts: 548
Joined: 2012-01-06

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-08

-Inox- wrote:
fingers630 wrote:What should we do in regards to Last Rites? Change it to be NPC only, make it so Rogue's cannot cast it, or just change their ability to Arcane Scrolls only?

Everything else seem ok like removing level restriction on torture at lvl 20 and allowing for 2x writs at lvl 20 for non Guild Masters?


I still say, let's make "Torture" into "Interrogation", and make it like Speak With Dead but for the living who are defenseless/unable to escape.

I think we can just add one line to Last Rites: "Last Rites cannot be made into a scroll." We already have Steelskin that can't be made into a potion.

And C/D Holy Weapon that can't be made into a scroll.

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-08

As far as Interrogate goes, does it make more sense to treat it as Truthspeak, or as Speak with Dead? Truthspeak is 1 question, as detailed as possible. Speak with dead is 3 Yes or No questions.

Both have their uses, but Id think a truth speak would be more useful under these circumstances wouldnt it?

"Did the No Quarter Guild Master send you?" is easily answered with yes or no, but you would have to get very lucky with the question.

"No? Was it the Mootian known as Pickles?"

"No? Was it someone from New Mordom?"
"yes! but dammit Im not sure who and Im out of questions."

"Who sent you?" would provide a much more detailed answer, but you couldnt ask follow up questions.

"A man bearing a strong resemblence to Exodus of New Mordom sent me, however he walked with a limp and had a patch over his right eye."
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-08

Also in regards to Guild Masters, should we include a stipulation that in order to retain GM status, the assassin must check in as the GM character at least 1 x every 4 months (like countries). If the character fails to do this, the guild will become vacant, and an event will be held to produce the new Guild Master?
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-08

Maybe have it be X amount of adventures? I mean, who cares if the guy shows up during battle days.. unless we're assuming that he's making meetings and doing "bidness" on those days.
Image

Snudge
Asst. Land Marshal
Posts: 301
Joined: 2012-01-10

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-09

It is not time we did this. I'm wholly against this proposal

-You don't even have assassinate as a skill in the list, why even mention writs since based on your skills list this class can't actually assassinate.
-Making assassinations last two hours is the same as removing them from the game, getting anyone to take a hit is hard enough already that any successful assassination deserves their target to be dead 24 hours. I would grant changing it to 12 hours but that's it"
-The entire notion of making last rites useable against NPCs only seems like we're just trying to pile on ways to screw assassinations

This change is completely unnecessary.
Rake, roustabout, vagabond and general no account sketchy
Some disreputable folks even go so far as to call me a mountebank
Holder of non-noble titles to numerous to mention

Banker of Darkon
OR, CM
Land Marshal

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-09

Thom. You're missing assassination as a skill in the list.

Drop master loot and thief pouch.

As part of the proposal combine assassin and thief credits.

Lets just do this and get it over with.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-09

Yeah its in my main proposal Im not finished yet. Sorry I just quickly typed up the abilities and threw them in a level chart. YOu will also notice that Open lock isnt on the list, but referenced at lvl 20 =P. Will edit with fixed list on Monday :)

Assassinate replaces Write Writ in the list, and Open Locks I believe was lvl 4.
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

mardux zulammar
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-03-21

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-03-09

I like it personally. I do however feel that 2 hrs for assassination is a little low. 4-6 hours seems like it would be better middle ground. That would put you out for nearly the entirety of day events and most Fridays of campouts. And it'll kill nearly half of (what's left of) Saturdays at campouts. It doesn't seem like seem like it would break you but that length of time would still make you REALLY not want to get taken out. 2 hours to me just seems pointless.

Just the opinion of someone who has an assassin capable of holding a guild but has chosen to not make a hit yet.
~Member of the Northern Kingdoms
~Phoenix Company, Head of Artillery and Ranged
~Squire to Baron Tyriel Firebrand
~ (Ex)Head Spell Marshal
~Relics Marshal 2013-2014

User avatar
fingers630
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 1613
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: In his Anti Magic Pants

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-09

Tell me, what is the point of assassinations in game? Other than griefing a player, and making him or her play a class they have no interest in playing that day? If you can give me a good reason, Ill agree with you, but Ive yet to see one.

Eliminitating a powerful person from a strategic point of the adventure? 2 hours accomplishes this. Teaching someone a lesson for going against a country/individual? 2 hours accomplishes this.

No other class ability in the game forces you to not play your chosen character for 24 hours. I find this disturbing. Its the equivalent of me animating someone 35 times in a row and having them carry firewood for me until its duration runs out. Sounds fun doesnt it?
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

______________________________________________________________________
"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

Snudge
Asst. Land Marshal
Posts: 301
Joined: 2012-01-10

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-10

Here is the definition of a griefer

A griefer is a player in a game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals

Explain to me how assassination is greifing anyone, people do not get assassinated for out of game reasons. The same people aren't always assassinated. They aren't being assassinated using rules exploits, or by taking advantage of the rules in unintended ways. In fact if assassins were griefers don't you think we'd have a much higher actual body count from them as a class since they'd be constantly killing people.

The point of assassination is the murder of a prominent person or political figure by a surprise attack, usually for payment or political reasons. Those reasons maybe religious, ideological, political, or military; maybe carried out for the prospect of financial gain, to avenge a grievance, or from the desire to acquire fame or notoriety

It is a perfectly acceptable RP element to include in a game, you don't like 24 hours and I HATE the very idea of 2 hours. Nearly as much as I HATE the idea of combining thief and assassin classes. They are most certainly not the same class, yes perhaps they have similar armor restrictions, and skill sets. But there are clear and distinct differences, and its those differences that add flavor and RP elements to the game.

This proposal has the potential to inflict much more damage to the game than doing actual good for the game. I worry you might not have considered all the negative aspects that come with making this change
Rake, roustabout, vagabond and general no account sketchy
Some disreputable folks even go so far as to call me a mountebank
Holder of non-noble titles to numerous to mention

Banker of Darkon
OR, CM
Land Marshal

User avatar
Inox
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 571
Joined: 2012-01-09

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Inox » 2013-03-10

Snudge wrote:Explain to me how assassination is greifing anyone, people do not get assassinated for out of game reasons.


This is patently untrue. I suppose someone can always invent an in-game reason for doing whatever they're doing, but I've seen a whole lot of deliberate griefing.

I agree with Fingers 100%; taking away someone's ability to play the character they geared up for and paid money to play is a bit ridiculous. It severely penalizes people who put in the effort on costume, spellbooks, etc., and has no effect on the people who put in the absolute minimal of effort, have no interest in classes or RP, and have barely passing costume.

It's absolutely not fun for the vast majority of people who get hit. Is the "fun" you get from taking someone out worth that much negativity for the person you use it on? I don't think it balances.

Snudge wrote:The point of assassination is the murder of a prominent person or political figure by a surprise attack, usually for payment or political reasons. Those reasons maybe religious, ideological, political, or military; maybe carried out for the prospect of financial gain, to avenge a grievance, or from the desire to acquire fame or notoriety

It is a perfectly acceptable RP element to include in a game


Yes, so RP it.

In real life, you kill someone, and they don't come back. I don't think anyone's peevish enough to try to argue for permanent character death.

Therefore, we need to balance what happens when you die, so no player gets horribly screwed by the rules.

Imagine if Mages got one Doomball a day, and whoever it hit directly lost all spell points and casting ability. Would that be fun to have in game? Would the jollies that the Mage got from ruining someone else's casting be worth taking away another player's abilities?

If there is anything to be proud of in a hit, it's not that you were allowed by the rules to keep them from playing their character. That says absolutely nothing about the skill of the player. Zilch.

If you really want to have something to be proud of, set up the circumstances. Pull off a great set up, or do some impressive sneaking. You know: Do something that other people want to talk about around the fire years later because it was so cool to see it happen.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-10

fingers630 wrote:No other class ability in the game forces you to not play your chosen character for 24 hours. I find this disturbing. Its the equivalent of me animating someone 35 times in a row and having them carry firewood for me until its duration runs out. Sounds fun doesnt it?


An assassin spends his whole adventure, having fun, playing his character- just to ensure someone else can't play theirs? ALL DAY? Honestly, setting up a "hit" means diddly, and that is why. If every time I killed a dude with my sword, he had to sit the * down for an hour, then maybe a full day hit would be cool. But it's not, it's 10 minutes.

Benching someone for 12x longer than they can regularly be kept from play seems about fair.
Last edited by Lord Valfryn on 2013-03-10, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Snudge
Asst. Land Marshal
Posts: 301
Joined: 2012-01-10

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-10

I would love to do a hit like that, except....I'm a thief and don't get that ability. I made the choice not to be able to assassinate, why is that ability suddenly trying to be forced on my class against our will. Snudge is by trade a shyster, not a trained killer.
The essential basis for my stance against this is that if this change were to happen, you are forcibly altering my entire gaming experience, and all the work I've put into my character for 17 years. Everything that snudge was as a thief is now gone. At which point instead of removing my character for 24 hours, you are removing him from the game in a very permanent way. Snudge the lvl 50+ thief is dead, there are no more thieves. Instead "whatever the hell name I chose" lvl 50+ scoundrel is born and there is no more Snudge.
Rake, roustabout, vagabond and general no account sketchy
Some disreputable folks even go so far as to call me a mountebank
Holder of non-noble titles to numerous to mention

Banker of Darkon
OR, CM
Land Marshal

User avatar
Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-10

Adding more abilities over time has not altered Bendore and it has not altered Snudge. 20 years ago we disguised in plate, 17 we could disguise as people, 5 years ago we suddenly had faster looting and this special sack to hide * in. None of it altered the character as the character has nothing to do with the skills.

Snudge won't change just as Bendore won't change. The personalities will remain the same regardless of what skills we get.

This comes up every 5 years but people never take it to Senate because of the bitching on the forums. I am done with the bitching and want things in Senate to 'finalize' them in some way.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


____

http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

Gor Strayhorn
Posts: 51
Joined: 2012-06-08

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-03-10

Any player can be a trained killer, the RP determines the abilities not the other way around. I.E., Thrush plays a fighter but wears hide. A rogue can pickpocket but not use assassinate. Many character play their character without using all of the abilities.
Gor Strayhorn
Great Wolf - Battle Leader of Asaheim
Warden and Warhound of Asaheim
First Ranger of Asaheim

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-10

It all comes down to the "meta". I know that thrush can stab the * out of be, but he can't assassinate me.
Image

User avatar
Thrush Svartehjertet
Posts: 1295
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-11

Or AM I a fighter?

Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

User avatar
PadreCaedes
Darkonian
Posts: 127
Joined: 2012-01-16
Location: Temple of Khorne

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by PadreCaedes » 2013-03-11

You don't strike me as a mage.
Warmaster Caedes, Kinslayer
Knight of Ched Nasad
Patron Father of House LeDouche

High Priest of Ched Nasad
Vicar of the Church of Khorne
Steward of NorthHold
House Ledouche: "We Bow to No Man...Because We Can't"

User avatar
Amazing_Iltztafein
Darkonian
Posts: 548
Joined: 2012-01-06

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-11

But if he times his spin attack just right against noobs in no armor with no shields, he can easily do radius damage...

...so maybe he is a mage.

mardux zulammar
Posts: 142
Joined: 2012-03-21

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-03-11

So would the ban aoe prop effectively ban NQ! spin moves?
~Member of the Northern Kingdoms
~Phoenix Company, Head of Artillery and Ranged
~Squire to Baron Tyriel Firebrand
~ (Ex)Head Spell Marshal
~Relics Marshal 2013-2014

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-03-11

The "whoosh" must be heard CLEARLY from 5 ft away.
Image

User avatar
Amazing_Iltztafein
Darkonian
Posts: 548
Joined: 2012-01-06

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-11

There's a question for the safety-minded people of the game - can you shield press/bash someone as they spin. I mean, they knew you were there if they were fighting you to begin with.

On the other hand, if they are turned around when you hit them, you're hitting from behind

DUN DUN DUN. :twisted:

User avatar
Thrush Svartehjertet
Posts: 1295
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-03-11

A shield press is not from a run, it can be done pretty much any time from anywhere. I do it all the time from behind when I'm missing my sword arm and can push an enemy towards someone on my team. I have no problem with safe application of shields to chorale or move someone any time. Bashes (you know one when you see one) should be from the "front 90". Shield check me all day while I'm spinning. And I spin more than anyone in No Qaurter! most days.

Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''

User avatar
Inox
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 571
Joined: 2012-01-09

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Inox » 2013-03-11

Snudge wrote:I would love to do a hit like that, except....I'm a thief and don't get that ability. I made the choice not to be able to assassinate, why is that ability suddenly trying to be forced on my class against our will. Snudge is by trade a shyster, not a trained killer.
The essential basis for my stance against this is that if this change were to happen, you are forcibly altering my entire gaming experience, and all the work I've put into my character for 17 years. Everything that snudge was as a thief is now gone. At which point instead of removing my character for 24 hours, you are removing him from the game in a very permanent way. Snudge the lvl 50+ thief is dead, there are no more thieves. Instead "whatever the hell name I chose" lvl 50+ scoundrel is born and there is no more Snudge.


C'mon, man. Your character is still your character, b/c Snudge is a function of RP, and to the extent that you are a function of rules, you can still do all the same Thief stuff. You're not an assassin in your mind? Fine. Don't assassinate. I am not a shyster; I am a trained adventurer/treasure hunter. Should I be offended that Thieves got Disguise? No, I simply don't use it.

Your gaming experience is not being altered in the least, unless your experience includes metagaming. Just play your character as always before, use the same abilities, and have fun...continue calling yourself whatever you choose. This gives more options, not fewer.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests