The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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fingers630
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-04-22

I was waiting for Havoc to show me his assassin proposal but as he has not done so, and no one has commented on the issues I have mentioned, I will be proposing the finalized version of this later this week.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Snudge » 2013-04-24

Still against this as last rites becomes NPC only. I'd like some clerics to chime in on this change
Rake, roustabout, vagabond and general no account sketchy
Some disreputable folks even go so far as to call me a mountebank
Holder of non-noble titles to numerous to mention

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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-04-24

Simple fix for that is to add "Last Rites cannot be made into a scroll" to the description (as it is with Create/Destroy Holy Weapon"). It can remain a spell used on players, but not be used by those that can assassinate.

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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Havoc » 2013-04-24

Fingers you will have it by 1800.

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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-15

Final Draft. I will be making copies of this and handing out at Check In to a country representative of each country. Please note there are a few "line item vetos" on this final draft. The main one is regarding Assassination Duration. The default time for assassination duration will be 2 hours. If people feel that is too short, i have included a 4 hour duration. If that still isnt long enough, I have included a 6 hour duration, which I was told was more "assassin" friendly. Personally I feel 2 is enough, but anything is better than the current 24.

Feel Free to post any questions, or let me know if I added something incorrectly. The last issue is with Last Rights. I plan to make a separate proposal to either make it NPC only OR not allowable on a scroll.

Rank 1- Looting
Rank 2- Pick Pocket, Disguise
Rank 3- Backstab, Climb Walls
Rank 4- Read Languages, Open Locks
Rank 5- Find/Remove Traps
Rank 6- Interrogation (Torture)
Rank 7- Make Poison (Any type)
Rank 8- Assassinate (Write Writ 1x Day)
Rank 9- Read Magical Language (ability to cast from scrolls)
Rank 10- Guild Master / Master Thief
Rank 15- Detect Disguise, Rogue’s Pouch
Rank 20- Improved Interrogate, 2 x Writ per Adv Day*


The Rogue
Rogue characters are masters of stealth and disguise. They are limited in their armor, shield, and weapon choices due to their need for stealth and agility.
Rogues may use any weapon except chained yellow weapons, black weapons, and any weapon exceeding 4' in length (Missile weapons are excluded from the 4' restriction). Rogues may garb themselves in any style of costume, from a wizard’s robes to silk and lace, but they must wear a skeleton key on their person as a symbol of their character type. Rogues may wear armor of no greater than AC2, and may use a shield of any shape, so long as it does not have any dimension exceeding 24”.

Rank 1:
All Rogues have the ‘Looting’ skill at 1st rank. This skill allows the Rogue to quickly search the dead bodies of other participants and NPCs for loot and treasure. To perform this skill, the Rogue must present his skeleton key to the dead body and ‘search’ each body part (head, torso, limbs) and any bags, pouches, etc., by naming the area to be searched. For example, the Rogue presents his key and says to the dead body, “I am a Rogue, here is my key. Do you have any treasure on your left arm?” Bags and pouches attached to the body location are considered part of that location. For example, a belt pouch secured to a person’s waist is considered to be part of the torso. However, if a shield or pouch is dropped away from the body, it must be looted separately. Once an area is searched, the dead creature must give the Rogue any ‘in‐play’ items he may have such as coin, Relics, maps, treasure, and so on. If a character or creature is mortally wounded, he is not affected by the Looting skill.

Rank 2:

At 2nd rank, a Rogue gains the 'Pick Pockets' skill. Unlike Looting, this skill allows the Rogue to steal objects from the bodies of living creatures. An Elder must be present for the Rogue to use this skill.

The Rogue will inform the Elder which item he is trying to steal (this may include a particular single item or the contents of a bag or pouch held by an individual), and from whom. The Rogue must then, in the witness of the Elder, place his hand on the item to be stolen or the specific area where the item(s) are contained (pouch, boot, shield, etc). The victim must not be aware of the attempt, and cannot be completely incapacitated (paralyzed, agony poisoned, Entangled, affected by Hold Person, etc.).

The time for which the Rogue must remain in contact varies by rank:
2nd – 10th: 15 seconds
11th – 19th: 10 seconds
20th+: 5 seconds

The Elder will give the Rogue a pre‐determined signal, which will signify that the task is complete. Sometime later, the Elder will inform the victim that he has been stolen from and retrieve from him the item that was stolen. The Elder will then give the item or
items to the Rogue in private.

At 2nd rank, a Rogue also gains the adventure-only skill of 'Disguise' with which he may Disguise himself as any race or character type that exists in the game. A Rogue may disguise himself as a member of another Country (i.e. wearing their surcoat) but may not disguise himself as a specific character.

When in disguise, the Rogue must wear some physical representation of the disguise,
for example armor, dress, robes, surcoat of another Country, etc. A Rogue will not gain any of the abilities of another character type he may be disguised as. However, the Disguise skill does allow the Rogue to exceed the armor and shield restrictions of his character. While in disguise, a Rogue may wear armor from up to the AC3 armor rating, and use any shield that does not have a dimension greater than 36". When a Rogue exceeds his armor/shield restrictions he cannot use any other Rogue abilities until 15 minutes after the armor and/or shield are removed.
This skill relies heavily on role-playing, both on the part of the Rogue, and the other players
surrounding him. Often, players will notice a disguise when the characters do not; all involved are encouraged to act as if the Rogue fits normally in his surroundings.

Rank 3:

At 3rd rank, a Rogue's agility allows him to 'Climb Walls.' The Rogue can climb any 'wall' of a Darkon structure (see Fortifications in Chapter Three), by lying flat on his stomach and, beginning at a distance of 10' from the wall, crawling to it. The Rogue can have nothing in his hands while climbing.

When he reaches the wall safely, the Rogue may enter the structure by simply passing
through the rope, tape or whatever is used to represent the wall itself. If a Rogue is caught climbing a wall, he may only be attacked with missile weapons or pole arms from inside the structure while on the wall, and, if hit, must take normal damage and drop from the wall landing outside the structure.

Any time a Rogue jumps or falls from a wall, he suffers a light wound to both legs,
regardless of armor and in addition to any other damage caused by a weapon hit.


Also at 3rd rank, a Rogue also gains the ability to 'Backstab.' Due to their stealth, Rogues may quietly approach their opponents from behind, allowing them an attack to a vulnerable spot. A Rogue may make one Backstab attack to their opponents' back (torso), which is the equivalent to two red attacks. This attack must be made as a surprise to the victim and can only be performed with a dagger.

Backstabbing results are as follows:
AC0: Death
AC1: Death
AC2: Death
AC3: Mortally Wounded
AC3: Mortally Wounded
AC4: Armor Destroyed
Stoneskin: Death
Ironskin: Death
Steelskin: Protection Destroyed

Rank 4:

At 4th rank, a Rogue gains the ability to 'Open Locks.' This is a skill that allows a Rogue to open, or pick, locks or barred doors.
The Rogue should visibly hold her skeleton key in an outstretched hand when using this ability.
At 4th-10th rank, the Rogue may open a non-magical lock in 15 seconds.
At 11th-19th rank, the Rogue may open a non-magical lock in 10 seconds. She may also unbar the unmanned gate of a fortification, allowing the gate to be opened from the outside.
At 20th rank, Rogues may open a non-magical lock in 5 seconds. They can also bypass magical locks or portals (including items affected by Hold Portal), and can choose to automatically lock or “re-bar” anything that they bypass.

At an Elder’s discretion, this skill does not function against locks and portals for which a specific means of entry is part of the Adventure plot.


At 4th rank, a Rogue also may 'Read Languages' other than the common Darkonian tongue. This skill allows a Rogue to immediately translate any written text that she reads.
This understanding is generally plain language only; it does not automatically solve any puzzles or riddles, decode ciphers, or uncover hidden meanings.

However, a Rogue of 20th rank and above is even savvier at deciphering, and may receive additional clues or hints at an Elder’s discretion.


Rank 5:

At 5th rank, a Rogue gains the adventure-only skill 'Find and Remove Traps.' This skill allows a Rogue to uncover traps and disarm them.

The Rogue should visibly hold her skeleton key in an outstretched hand when using this ability, and should always inform an Elder prior to its use.

Rogues of 5th-10th rank can detect and disable small physical traps such as poison needles, trapdoors, etc. They can also detect larger, full room physical traps, which may include even incidental things such as a tunnel near collapse.

Rogues of 11th-19th rank can also detect (but not disable) magical traps such as glyphs, stone guardians, etc.

Rogues of 20th rank can detect and disable any sort of trap. They may also elect to bypass a trap they could disarm, leaving it active after they pass by.

The effect of this skill is subject to the discretion of an Elder; the use of this skill should facilitate and not supersede plot development.


Rank 6:

At 6th rank, Rogues gain the skill to 'Interrogate’ (or Torture) another character in order to obtain information. To perform this skill, a Rogue must choose the victim from whom he wishes to extract information. This skill may not be applied to a mortally wounded character, but may be applied to a character with one or more light wounds.

The Rogue must then role-play the interrogation with the victim for five minutes. If the session is interrupted, all effects of the interrogation are canceled. Once the session is complete, the Rogue may ask his victim one question, and the victim must answer to the best of his or her knowledge truthfully and literally. Only in character knowledge may be divulged, and then only if the victim knows the information sought.

After the question is asked and answered, the victim suffers a mortal wound and will die in five minutes if not healed. If the victim is healed, the Rogue may interrogate the victim further or the victim may be released.

Rogues may only torture characters of Equal to or lower rank than themselves.*


Rank 7:
At 7th rank, Rogues gain the ability to 'Make Poison' on adventures only. A Rogue may make five doses of any type of poison (see Poison in Chapter Seven) per adventure day. To make a dose of poison, the Rogue must announce his intention to the Magistrate or Marshal at the beginning of the adventure day. He then must supply the Magistrate or Marshal with a written Poison Writ stating the type of poison to be made, its effects, and duration. He must also pay the full cost of the poison.
The Magistrate or Marshal will sign the Writ and give it to the Thief. Poison charts can be found in Chapter Seven: Special Items.
Rank 8:

At 8th rank, a Rogue may be commissioned to ‘Assassinate’ another character during adventures. Assassinations are the only means of removing another character from an adventure for longer than the normal 12 minutes allowed for death. To perform an assassination, a Rogue must first obtain a Writ of Assassination.

A Writ may only be obtained in one of two ways:
First, it may be acquired from one of the three Guildmasters of the Assassin’s Guilds in Darkon. The Rogue must obtain a Writ with the character name of the victim to be assassinated and the mark of the Guildmaster.
The second way is for a Rogue to write his own writ, which must then be signed by the Magistrate/Head Elder of the event. A rogue may only write ONE such writ per adventure day.
A Writ is only valid for the event during which it is written. Once the Writ is obtained, the Rogue is free to assassinate his victim.
An assassination can only be performed with a dagger, an arrow, or by poison. The Rogue must strike his victim with a blow that would cause at least a mortal wound. Once the assassination is performed, the Writ must be left with the victim. If the assassination
is performed with an arrow, the Writ must be tied to the shaft of the arrow.
Assassinations may also be performed with death class poison (see Poison in Chapter Seven); however, the Writ must still be left with the victim. All rules regarding Resurrection apply to assassination victims.
Any assassinated character may not return to play for 2 hours unless resurrected through magical means. (Line item veto)
Any assassinated character may not return to play for 4 hours unless resurrected through magical means. (Line item veto)
Any assassinated character may not return to play for 6 hours unless resurrected through magical means. (Line item veto)
An assassinated player may play any of his other character personas or classes other than the one assassinated. If the player does not have any other classes/personas, he or she may then make up a new persona and play as a rank 1 fighter for the duration of the assassination.
For example, if I Thom Hitz am playing Fingers the Mage, and I am assassinated, for the duration of the assassination, I may not play my rank X mage that was assassinated, nor may I return to play as Fingers for that same period of time as any other class. I could however any of my other classes and use a different persona while playing them, or I could play a 1st rank fighter.

Rank 9:

At 9th rank, Rogues gain the ability to 'Read Magical Languages' as an adventure-only skill. In addition to reading normal languages, a Rogue may now translate magical texts, and can read and cast any scroll. The Rogue reads the scroll just as a caster would, and may then immediately cast the spell written on the scroll, following normal rules for scroll reading and spell casting.

Rank 10:

At 10th Rank, the Rogue becomes a Master Thief, and his “looting” skill improves. From now on, when he loots, all locations (and nearby dropped items) are searched at once. The Rogue must present his Skeleton key to the dead body and say “I am a Master Thief, and here is my key. Do you have any treasure?”
All items must then be given to the Rogue as per the Looting rules listed at Rank 1.
Also at 10th rank, a Rogue may attempt to become a ‘Guildmaster’. To become a Guildmaster, a Rogue must assassinate an existing Guildmaster per the normal rules for assassinations in order to inherit his Guild. Alternatively, Guildmasters may freely transfer their Guild to another Rogue player (provided they are of at least 10th Rank)

A Guildmaster is the only character in the game that may issue an unlimited number of Writs of Assassination. There are only three Guildmasters in Darkon, and the Magistrate must always be informed of the identity of each Guildmaster.
Guild Masters of the Realm must check in as their Guild Master character at least once every 4 months, in order to keep the Guild. Failure to do so will result in the Guild going defunct, much like a Country that fails to field, and an event will be held to choose a new Guild Master sponsored by the Magistrate and Event Marshall. (Line item Veto)

Rank 15:

At 15th rank, Rogues gain the adventure-only skill 'Detect Disguises.' This skill allows a higher level Rogue to see that a person may not be what or whom they claim by noticing flaws in that person's disguise. They are not able detect the actual identity of the disguised character, just that they are indeed, in disguise.
This skill can be employed after interacting with the suspect, or observing the suspect interact with another character, for 60 seconds. After 60 seconds the Rogue states to the suspect, "I am an nth rank Rogue. Are you in disguise?" The player must then answer honestly and continue acting as they were. The act of asking if the player is in disguise is considered out-of-game, but the "observation" must be in-game.
Also at 15th rank, a Rogue gains the skill of “Rogue’s Pouch.” In order to use this skill, the Thief must have on his person a rectangular black cloth pouch with a white key painted or embroidered on the outside. This pouch must be no more than 3" x 4", must lay flat
when empty (no appreciable thickness/depth), and must be made of a non‐stretchy fabric.
The following items may be legally be placed in the Pouch: coin, potions, poisons, scrolls, and miscellaneous wealth (gems, nuggets of gold, etc.).

Anything that is legally placed in the Pouch cannot be Looted or found via any sort of search, and only the Rogue to whom the Pouch belongs may touch or interact with the Pouch or its contents in any way. The one exception to this is the Pick Pockets ability. A
Pick-pocketing Rogue may inform an Elder that they are targeting a specific character's Pouch, and then go through the pick-pocketing motions as normal.

You may not use the Pouch to store Relics, Writs of Assassination, or any item unique to a given Adventure (if it's worth points or otherwise advances the plot). Whether any given item fits in this category is entirely at an event Elder's discretion.

Rank 20:

At 20th rank, the Rogue may also produce a second Writ of Assassination per adventure day. All requirements from the level 8 ability still apply. (Line item Veto)

Finally, at 20th Rank, the level requirement for Interrogate is removed, and you can interrogate any person, regardless of level.
Justicar Lucius Alexander Crum
Archmage of Elidor and Lord of the Realm
Queen of the Silly People

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"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

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fingers630
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-15

*edited to include Inox's new Utility proposal effects that went into play July 1*
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-15

Remove guilds/guildmasters and I'd support it.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-07-15

I can't read all the way through right now, but if you are shooting for 2hr assassinations, why not add that with a two hr "hit" add 'if character is dies from an asssassination writ, his/her character is killed for 2hr with no chance to be rezed for that time frame(like with last rites)'

Does that sound wrong?
I am not overly concerned if how this plays out just that of the as an idea.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-15

I included choice of 2 hr, 4 hr and 6 hr rez, to see which people preferred. As much as I dislike guildmasters, I dont think people want to see them go away.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-15

fingers630 wrote:I included choice of 2 hr, 4 hr and 6 hr rez, to see which people preferred. As much as I dislike guildmasters, I dont think people want to see them go away.


You'd be surprised.

Making the assassination power short term and integral to the class is much better than 24 hour assassinations with guildmasters allowing unlimited writs.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Cog » 2013-07-22

I strongly disagree with the level 20...anyone can be tortured. Regardless of what some people think, I know thieves and assassins who play the class enjoy earning levels so they can't be detected or tortured. I will vote against this proposal as it is currently

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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-22

I think it should be 25, solely because I think the game should stop rewarding players for anything beyond that level.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Cog » 2013-07-22

So you're saying we should remove detect disguise levels too? What I think should be in it's place is that torture gets 3 questions during the 5 min interogation, instead of just 1.

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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-23

Personally I always found immunity to torture due to being old to be one of the stupidest things about the class.

Jim the level 5 assassin cuts off bill the lvl 6 fighters finger off, but can divulge no information due to Bill's greater class level LOL.

Ill be passing out copies to countries Sunday. I have no issue with people discussing it, offering suggestions, and making compromises in the proposal. Oh and 3 Yes/No questions was in the original draft for Torture, but people felt leaving it as is was better /shrug.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-23

I think nobody should have an "undetectable disguise" and nobody should be "immune to torture". So outranking an assassin is fine, but once the rogue reaches lv 25, he wins the tie.

Meh, maybe I just like roleplay and the concept of forcing people to interact.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-23

You know, this discussion about detect disguise has me looking back at the rule.

At 15th rank, Thieves gain the adventure‐only skill ‘Detect Disguises.’ This skill allows a higher level Thief to see that a person may not be what or whom they claim by noticing flaws in that person’s disguise. They are not able detect the actual identity of the disguised character, just that they are indeed, in disguise.
This skill can be employed after interacting with the suspect, or observing the suspect interact with another character, for 60 seconds. After 60 seconds the Thief states to the suspect, “I am an nth rank Thief. Are you in disguise?” The participant must then answer honestly and continue acting as they were. The act of asking if the participant is in disguise is considered out‐of‐game, but the “observation” must be in‐game.


The skill says a "higher level thief" can detect a disguise. Higher than what? The person you are detecting? Or does it mean higher level, as in lvl 15 (since that is a fairly high level and higher than lvl 1).

Of course if you continue reading the skill, it then says, the participant MUST reveal if he or she is in disguise. There is no level comparison mentioned here, which leads me to believe there is no level comparison when using this skill at all (which is how Ive always used the skill)

Looks like I may have to reword that in the proposal since it seems very ambiguous to me.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-23

How would the mechanics work for detect disguise? Looks like a lot of 'out of character' interaction is required for it to work.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Inox » 2013-07-23

Disguise and Detect Disguise have always been problematic abilities used far more often for sloppy kills than for any sort of RP.

We had to dial it back from allowing people to disguise as other people's characters, and it's still used by the lamer Assassins to just walk up to a country in the middle of some other task and get close enough to stab someone. That's not really the sort of epic hit one reads about in fantasy novels.

Similarly, Detect Disguise is seldom used, and often sloughed when it is.

Is is 60 continuous seconds, or 60 cumulative? What does interact mean? Conversation? What if the person in Disguise is not paying attention or not responding? Does interaction include fighting next to? Does the conversation need to be continuous, or does a word or two of greeting mean that in 60 you can ask, so long as you are hanging out near them?

Everyone plays it differently, of course.

I detest abilities that people use for the "you can't see me" type actions. Some people tried to say Gaseous made you invisible, until the Pres. & Senate both said "NO!" resoundingly. I don't really think that there's a lot of benefit to smooth gameplay and minimizing griefing by allowing people to escape detection as a foe through class abilities.

At MOST, it should allow you to disguise yourself as a random character not of a specific active country. Then, it could be used when people are looking for Thief So-and-So, and all they can find is a random wandering peasant or sellsword.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-23

I agree with you, Inox. The set of abilities sound nice on paper but I'm having trouble visualizing their mechanics on the field. Unless an elder is directly involved for each disguise/detect action; both abilities just seem... 'clunky'.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-23

LOL I agree about detect disguise but disagree about Gaseous form. Count me as one of the people who said "you see a non distinct cloud of gas floating around"

Seeing Fingers, in transparent gas form, is still one of the dumbest things about that spell. Im fine wiith not being invisible, but come on man.

Anyway back on track, how should it be worded in the Rogue proposal? We either need to make it so interacting is defined, "higher" is defined, or what have you.
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Snudge » 2013-07-23

I have always seen detect played as 60 seconds continuous interaction(dialogue) not cumulative. Also its my character level vs yours.
55+ vs less than that "no I am not in disguise"
55+ vs more than that "yes I am in disguise"
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Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-24

Snudge wrote:I have always seen detect played as 60 seconds continuous interaction(dialogue) not cumulative. Also its my character level vs yours.
55+ vs less than that "no I am not in disguise"
55+ vs more than that "yes I am in disguise"



Where does it say anything about comparing levels? Also which of these is true? You are in disguise, or you are not? As at no point in the description does it say the observee can lie.

I want to punch this skill in the face it is worded so poorly.
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Queen of the Silly People

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"I'll grapple with greasy fingers... Just sayin'..."-Thrush

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Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-07-24

Snudge is correct.

The interaction is OOC.

I wrote the rule.

John
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


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LordTyrantCort
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 214
Joined: 2012-01-10

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-07-24

Now that seems silly to me.... Chat with them for 60 sec out if character, about what? And if it was IC, it can be cheesed.
"Who is the one true Tyrant of Ched Nasad?"
"Sorry buddy you got that wrong.... You can't be of the Army of Ched Nasad"
"Everyone knows it, even in the tunnels of hellpit"

And there are far too many ways around that are easily thought of.
Ex. Igneus of Laconia assassinated kittie at one point in time. Failed to do it quietly, was caught, killed, body laying there, asked what we saw, told it was a mordom guy, asked an elder if we strip him of the surcoat to show him as an example of failed assassins would it show who he was. Told we couldn't do that because to would mess with the disguse, cause we all know that the clothes make the man. But not if you are an assassin... Because your cloths can't be removed if you are in disguse.

Bad cheese skill that is * with from both sides.
Live for the slaughter
GLORIUS death

Knight of Ched Nasad
Survivor of The Asylum Mal'volus
Acolyte of GodThyanaos
OS...

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Lord Dubh
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 718
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Tarimstadt

Re: The Scoundrel/ The Rogue

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-07-24

You misunderstand.

The interaction between players to establish levels is OOC.

Everything else is IC.

Yes, it can be cheesed.
Yes, it has worked just fine.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
Master Thief of Darkon


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http://www.facebook.com/SirBendoreDubh/

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