Open Cavalier Class

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Sir Aethilgar
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Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-19

1. Policy Proposal Name: Open Cavalier Class
2. Proposal Originator:
a. name: Baron Aethilgar
b. email: aethilgar@gmail.com
3. Proposal Version: 1.0
4. Date: 06/19/2013
5. Proposal type: Modification of Class Rules
6. Policy term: Permanent
7. Policy statement:
This proposal is to remove the 'noble only' restriction from the Cavalier class and make it available to the general populous.

8. Rationale:
I have oft heard it said that the Cavalier class is overpowered in comparing it to other classes and that allowing only certain nobles access to the class represents an unfair advantage. In an effort to remove this perception; we should open the class to any who wish to play it.

We should maintain the 'cost' of the class and raise it slightly to 15 ranks (or more). This would allow the class to become a veteran's reward and would be obtainable congruent to personal heraldry.

Alignment; recently removed from monks, would be removed from Cavaliers, as well, and their alignment-bases sashes replaced with their personal heraldry.

Additionally; editing out gender-specific text seems appropriate.

9. Text:
From:

Any character that is a Knight of the Realm may become a Cavalier, by giving up all ranks in the class being given up to become a 1st rank Cavalier provided that the participant has won a Noble Council Tournament. Cavaliers are characters who serve a particular god or crusade for a cause. They must be of lawful alignment whether it is good, neutral, or evil.

...

Cavaliers must wear a cloth sash as a symbol of their character type; the color of the sash should reflect the Cavalier's alignment; white for good, gray for neutral, and black for evil. This sash represents a Cavalier's 'holy symbol' for any spells requiring one as a material component (see Chapter Six: Spells and Magic).

...

Battle is the eternal test of manhood.

To:

Any character may become a Cavalier by giving up all; but at least 15, ranks in a single class. The former rank 15+ class would be deleted in favor of a rank 1 Cavalier. Cavaliers are typically wealthy or high-born characters who serve a particular god, crusade, or cause.

...

Cavaliers must wear their personal heraldry (see Chapter Two: Heraldry and Livery). Their heraldry replaces the need for a 'holy symbol' for any spells requiring one as a material component (see Chapter Six: Spells and Magic).

...

Battle is the eternal test of Chivalry.

10. Cosigners
a. Gor Strayhorn
b. Kuroc the Bearclaw
Last edited by Sir Aethilgar on 2013-06-30, edited 2 times in total.
Baron Aethilgar Sheldwich

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Inox
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-06-19

If anything, they should be required to wear a Holy Symbol, just like other hybrid casters of differing power types (e.g. Rangers w/ a Nature Symbol, Warrior Mages with an Arcane Symbol).

However, if we are going to open this up, I think there needs to be some bonus or boon available only to those who have fought in the ring & won.

...and not adding OSW to one's signature. That's largely meaningless.
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Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-19

In this proposal; the Cavalier's heraldry is, in effect, their holy symbol. I hesitate to call it a 'holy symbol' as to avoid drawing a correlation between the Darkon Cavalier and the D&D Paladin (even if the class started out as a paladin originally).

Fighting and winning in the ring? Coming from one of the first to achieve such; winning in the ring is its own reward. But; if you'd like to put together a proposal for a boon to OSW title holders, I'd be glad to read it!
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-06-19

Or.. hash out the eternal discussion: Cavalier or Paladin/Antipaladin ?
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shroom2021
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-06-19

What about making some of the higher level abilities only available after the Cavalier has fought and won a Noble Tourney?

Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-19

I question to each of you; would you support the proposal as written and open the Cavalier class to non-OSW title holders, with the understanding that future proposals can address your concerns?
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-06-19

co-signed. Or we can resurrect the Fingers' Templar class. Either way, I wanna to be an Emperor-frakking Paladin!!!
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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-06-19

I am against this proposal. However, I am not opposed to opening the class up to OSW holders. We can also clean up the gender stuff as well. I just got this class a little over a year ago and it is an awesome rp class. All of the Cavs have good garb, are good rpers, and respected players. I feel that opening it up to the masses who will wear the class requirement and rock an anthrax tshirt under their armor is a bad thing. Not saying that any non knight would do that, but I feel this is really the only thing that knights have.
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-06-20

hence the difference between a "paladin class" and a "knight class".
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Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I am against this proposal. However, I am not opposed to opening the class up to OSW holders. We can also clean up the gender stuff as well. I just got this class a little over a year ago and it is an awesome rp class. All of the Cavs have good garb, are good rpers, and respected players. I feel that opening it up to the masses who will wear the class requirement and rock an anthrax tshirt under their armor is a bad thing. Not saying that any non knight would do that, but I feel this is really the only thing that knights have.


I understand; however the armor and garb requirements will remain in place. Unfortunately, its generally an unenforceable rule... much like alignment and the Code of Chivalry.

Would you be more 'for' the proposal if knights got something for the loss of their exclusive class?
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fingers630
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by fingers630 » 2013-06-20

Yep Paladins / Anti Paladins should have never been a reward class open to a few individuals.
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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-06-20

I STILL think the Cav class should be a different class (based more on leadership) and the pal/antipal can be the version of cav that we use now.

Players still must trade in 15 lvs of something to be it, yada yada yada (like 10 ftr, 5 cleric or the inverse), to get what we now call "Cav".

Anyone who has been a "cav" may choose to stay "paladin/antipaladin" or have thier levels immediately slapped into the "new Knight class"" or something of the like.
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fingers630
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by fingers630 » 2013-06-20

Exactly. Cavalier does not equal Templar/Paladin. Please note I have no issue with players receiving a boon for winning a tourney, just not a private class to themselves.

You won a tourney fight! Congrats, your god grants you special powers now. huh?
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Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

One step at a time, gentlemen. Open the class up to the masses... then propose a retooling of the Cav class as needed.

Baby steps!

So... who is cosigning? :)
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Inox
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-06-20

If we just open it up, the retooling is unlikely to happen for the people who earned the class under the existing rules.

Not to mention, you don't want long-standing Cavaliers with many ranks (people who have put a lot into and done a lot for the game) to suddenly feel ripped off.

There either needs to be something extra that winning in the ring conveys, other than bragging rights.
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Sir Aethilgar
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

-Inox- wrote:If we just open it up, the retooling is unlikely to happen for the people who earned the class under the existing rules.

Not to mention, you don't want long-standing Cavaliers with many ranks (people who have put a lot into and done a lot for the game) to suddenly feel ripped off.

There either needs to be something extra that winning in the ring conveys, other than bragging rights.


I'd be happy to propose it... but what is "it"?

Are there any OSW holders that have not become Cavaliers?
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fingers630
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by fingers630 » 2013-06-20

Maybe Keldar? Im not sure if Tarim ever made a Cavalier or remained a Fighter.
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Amazing_Iltztafein
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-06-20

fingers630 wrote:Maybe Keldar? Im not sure if Tarim ever made a Cavalier or remained a Fighter.

Not active, but Bannor was a fighter still, even though he was a fighting noble. He once told me it was because he liked using javelins and didn't want to disdain their use.

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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-06-20

The only cavs I think are:
Malkin
Slindar
Aethilgar
Cailen
Wraith
Valfryn
Kai
Braxus
Martin
Myself

Thats not a big list. There are a lot of nobles that did not give up their ranks because they didn't think Cav was a good trade off for their current class. Like I said, if you fight for it, you can have it.
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Inox
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-06-20

I also have a low-rank Cavalier that I seldom play.

Also, Corwin of Elidor has a Cav. And Lonnie.
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Inox
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-06-20

Sir Aethilgar wrote:I'd be happy to propose it... but what is "it"?



Not certain yet, but if you're going to suddenly tell existing Cavaliers (people who went to pains to earn the class under the rules) that anyone can now play that same class, ask what could you give them that wouldn't make them feel ripped off.

Something good has to come from having earned what they earned, if you're going to effectively take away a privilege...especially since we're not citing balance or playability reasons for doing so.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of an Order of the Sword bonus to existing classes, and then having Cavalier return to just being Paladin/Anti-Paladin, open to all who sacrifice a class to play it. So, basically a template and a prestige class, kinda. :D

The tricky part is figuring out what those bonuses should be. I'd like to hear from the long-standing Cavaliers of the realm.
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fingers630
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by fingers630 » 2013-06-20

-Inox- wrote:
Sir Aethilgar wrote:I'd be happy to propose it... but what is "it"?



Not certain yet, but if you're going to suddenly tell existing Cavaliers (people who went to pains to earn the class under the rules) that anyone can now play that same class, ask what could you give them that wouldn't make them feel ripped off.

Something good has to come from having earned what they earned, if you're going to effectively take away a privilege...especially since we're not citing balance or playability reasons for doing so.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of an Order of the Sword bonus to existing classes, and then having Cavalier return to just being Paladin/Anti-Paladin, open to all who sacrifice a class to play it. So, basically a template and a prestige class, kinda. :D

The tricky part is figuring out what those bonuses should be. I'd like to hear from the long-standing Cavaliers of the realm.



the hell is going on? I agree with Inox completely :D
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Kuroc the Bearclaw » 2013-06-30

cosign

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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-02

I'd just say let them stack the Cav Abilities on top of any class they play as a noble who's won a tourney.. not armor or any of that other *, just the cav spells (not the biggest woop) and abilities.

Do we care about anyone who wins ots having any of these spells/ abils? I really don't. If anything someone might find the heal on a class that can't cast heal a little beardy, but whatevs.. if that's the case, make it a no-cast apropriate spell/abil for the class (typically lowbie). Since rangers, clerics, monks (to in a way) already have cure light wounds it's not a big deal.

just come up with something for rogue/wizards and what-have you's.


Then we open the Paladin Class (the Cav it's in the rulebook) up to the public. With all the restrictions therein. The armor, the garb, and make it a lv 10 buy-in from cleric or fighter (so we aren't giving newbies * for not having noble clothes/armor).

The nasty truth of opening the Cav class to the public: unless you're planning on getting rid of most of the "required" RP flavor of the class- we're going to have to get rid of it entirely. It's impossible to monitor/enforce and people find ways to try and say their character roleplays dressing like a Juggalo from space... imagine the "Cav Code grey area spin-offs."

If a current Cav wishes to stay cav, cool! But if he's playing his ranger that day, his ranger is still immune to disease and can now cast heal as an ability, not a spell.

What this also does: Throws out the "sources of power". The character can decide how to explain his gnarly abilities.. be they divine, arcane, natural or alchemical. (I think it's a plus)

Done.
Thoughts?
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Kanin Firebrand
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Kanin Firebrand » 2013-07-02

I had the idea a few years back that fighting nobles should be able to field a limited number of extra people during land actions (retinue), based on rank (knight=1 extra, baron=2, etc.) That idea has been kinda rolled into being a noble now though.

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