Open Cavalier Class

Forum for the discussion of proposals people would like to make.
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Inox
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-07-03

Lord Valfryn wrote:I'd just say let them stack the Cav Abilities on top of any class they play as a noble who's won a tourney.. not armor or any of that other *, just the cav spells (not the biggest woop) and abilities.

Done.
Thoughts?


Sounds quite good. I'd cosign.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-03

Kanin Firebrand wrote:I had the idea a few years back that fighting nobles should be able to field a limited number of extra people during land actions (retinue), based on rank (knight=1 extra, baron=2, etc.) That idea has been kinda rolled into being a noble now though.


Land rules are borked as it is.

If this became the case it would serve no purpose not to join one of the many Countries that serve as Noble Geriatric facilities :Trollface:... so you could just go beastmode with (umpteen * nobles) (x minions).

And this is with the current assumption that nobody of title is trying to actively "cheese" their "retinues".

I mean if this is only for "land SEARCHING"... I guess it's no big deal, but the truth of the matter is- when land searching, the amount of people you bring isn't a deal, and neither is the cost of doing so .
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Kanin Firebrand » 2013-07-04

That's fair. As I said, the idea was spawned several years back prior to the new influx nobles and the rules for having a retinue.

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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-07-11

--The changes recently made to allow Order of the Sword winners to become cavaliers are very new. I think that opens the door to allow non-nobles to become cavaliers while keeping the class unique and special for those who earned it in the ways of old. I think we should gauge how that goes before doing anything like this. I think it's too much.
--Many veterans have tons of old characters gathering dust in the character files that they could easily dump for a cavalier. Plus, I can see people doing things like playing a ranger for 15 levels to land search for their country with the intent of just dumping the levels in favor of a cavalier when the time came. Or other similar things. I wouldn't see that so much as giving something up as killing time until they got what they wanted.
-- Plus, I think cavaliers are balanced in terms of the fact that there aren't many of them out there. If half the fighters on the field gained the abilities of a cavalier, then I would think that too would be a bit much.
I don't like this idea

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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-11

exoduscleric wrote:-- Plus, I think cavaliers are balanced in terms of the fact that there aren't many of them out there. If half the fighters on the field gained the abilities of a cavalier, then I would think that too would be a bit much.


I think that's an interesting way of saying that the class isn't really balanced against other classes.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-07-11

They're not an issue when there's only a few of them with unique hurdles to achieve it. Opening the floodgates on them might be excesive. They're not ridiculously OP, but I don't think half the fighters on the field (or more) should suddenly gain all of these abilities.

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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-07-12

Aethilgar are you a cav right now?
Do you wish to be a cav?
I am not a cav.
But I have the intent to become one. It is something to earn through fighting others that have earned it.

What is wrong with that. (Opening a box here) assassins are one of those classes as well. The guilds and the people in them are a selective group, a new "hitter" has to do things to become part of the group. I was against the free writ at tenth level because of that class's culture. Because the people that wanted to be in the "in crowd" should have to work for it.

So you want to fix it because people think its wrong to have to work to become a class in the game.
Well I have fought for everything, in my country, to become a noble, and I will fight to become a cav.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-12

LordTyrantCort wrote:Aethilgar are you a cav right now?
Do you wish to be a cav?
I am not a cav.
But I have the intent to become one. It is something to earn through fighting others that have earned it.

What is wrong with that. (Opening a box here) assassins are one of those classes as well. The guilds and the people in them are a selective group, a new "hitter" has to do things to become part of the group. I was against the free writ at tenth level because of that class's culture. Because the people that wanted to be in the "in crowd" should have to work for it.

So you want to fix it because people think its wrong to have to work to become a class in the game.
Well I have fought for everything, in my country, to become a noble, and I will fight to become a cav.


Yes, I play a Cavalier and have since about '89, though not continuously, and; yes, I wish to continue on as a Cavalier. I don't have a dog in this race; I have my OSW and access to the Cav class. Though I do not feel that beating Cailin in the ring in the late 80s should grant me access to an exclusive class; the reason I put forward this proposal is due to the amount of grumbling I've heard from non-nobles since returning to the field. Yes, perhaps it's .. heh... class envy... or perhaps not. Opening the Cav class is a topic that deserves to be discussed in the Senate. If/When the Senate shoots it down; those who have grumbled will have their answer and can address the issue with their country leaders, the nobles within their countries, and their Senate representatives.

However; there is an altruistic side of me that maintains the opinion that fighting for nobility ~is~ the reward. You serve the game, you look the part, you fight well... you petition, you pass review, and are invited to fight in the ring against another noble. It is an acknowledgement of your service to the club by the club and it is an acknowledgement of your prowess by your peers. Further; (for good or ill) you are now trusted with the safety of the entire game. It should never have been a pathway to on the field power. It became so because the game was small and those that led the game made it so. If you seek your OSW just to gain access to the cavalier class... you are likely 'doing it wrong'.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-07-12

but order of the sword is not a noble make...... it just allows you access to the cav class. if you win. but if you get all five orders, you force the nc to vote on you.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2013-07-12

I strongly feel that both Cavalier and OSW should not be the sole propriety of the NC. So much so that I wrote the proposal for OSW (and OG, OR, and OS) that made its way into the bylaws, replacing the old Knight Errant/ Lord/ Lady titles.

What this did is open up Cav and the fighting title to ANYONE who wishes to pursue it. In less than six months we had our first non-noble OSW (Thorson of NK). I suggest that those seeking to be a Cav do what he did. Anyone can be nominated for it, and if you win a Spring or Fall Tourney you are guaranteed the right to fight.

Furthermore, there is training available. Several OSW, myself included, are willing to help challengers prepare for tourney fighting. This is in terms of fighting, NC Tourney specific tactics, and kit.

The road is wide open for anyone who wants to pursue this. Let's make the game richer, not just more convenient.
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Re: Land Marshal and Assistants

Post by siamon » 2013-07-22

I have oft heard it said that the Cavalier class is overpowered in comparing it to other classes and that allowing only certain nobles access to the class represents an unfair advantage. In an effort to remove this perception; we should open the class to any who wish to play it.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-22

Actually, getting OSW is its own goal, now. Previously, I would agree- that becoming a NOBLE just to gain access to the cav class is about the silliest thing I could imagine...but tasteless, I suppose.

I could care less if someone wants to take OSW by arms, that's what it's designed for. I would also say though, shaming the OSW by poor gameplay after unlocking the cav class will be met with disdain from a lot of "true haters".

I mean seriously, the class was designed for people who fight well AND serve the club. Now all you have to do is fight well. So the goal here is to have the class open to anyone who shows up enough to burn a lv 10 toon? Gtfo with that.

Part of being a "Cav" is being a notable CHARACTER/player. By notable , I mean someone with a good rep score, not just someone I recognize as "that dude who was smoking Marlboro lights for3 years on the sidelines." Winning a commoners tourney and taking in a win in a noble ring match means you're notable.

If you aren't going to sack up and serve the club, you better be nasty enough with a foam sword that I must begrudgingly respect your prowess. Non-noble OSW's may always be Hedgeknights, but you know what? It's something earned, hard fought.

Is there a petition somewhere for broke ass people who expect to be able to own the same 90k car that the physician drives to work as well? I mean, he definitely made a lot of good life choices and worked really hard.. I should probably be given that car too, because it's not fair that good things are given to people that earn them.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-22

The two are not comparable by a long shot but I do appreciate your comments.

In the proposal, the ranks burned is raised from 10 to 15.

So; why should winning in the ring grant one special powers on the field?

If 'new', exclusive, special powers were defined for OSW winners would it then make sense to open the Cav class to all veterans of Darkon who burn a rank 15 character?
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-07-22

Sir Aethilgar wrote:The two are not comparable by a long shot but I do appreciate your comments.

In the proposal, the ranks burned is raised from 10 to 15.

So; why should winning in the ring grant one special powers on the field?

If 'new', exclusive, special powers were defined for OSW winners would it then make sense to open the Cav class to all veterans of Darkon who burn a rank 15 character?


It makes more sense that you get extra powers from actually doing a thing in game, like winning in the ring, than by just showing up & paying dues (& then sitting on the sidelines, say).

You can rank up that way, and that's just silly by comparison.
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Re: Land Marshal and Assistants

Post by Inox » 2013-07-22

siamon wrote:I have oft heard it said that the Cavalier class is overpowered in comparing it to other classes and that allowing only certain nobles access to the class represents an unfair advantage. In an effort to remove this perception; we should open the class to any who wish to play it.


So, you've not made any argument for it being overpowered, or how exclusivity automagically confers an unfair advantage on the field, but on the strength of an "oft heard" perception from a person with 1 post, we should screw over our veterans who've worked hard to earn the right of Cavalier.

Well reasoned, counselor.

Actually, I think it's perhaps best answered with this sardonic bit of Lord Valfyrn's post:

Lord Valfryn wrote:it's not fair that good things are given to people that earn them.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-23

Making rank 15 isn't hard. I don't even call that "vet" status. Not because someone who's been around for 2-5 years can't be a "vet", it's just that lots of people aren't out there, like that.

Being a "vet" is more like a practical exam.
Step 1: stop making noobish actions/comments
Step 2: be seen on the field making good plays
Step 3: not wearing a t-tunic

I genuinely don't know what's going on in people's mind to make them think it's cool to suggest this sort of thing. We already determined the legit "balanced" game class that should be out there was the "Templar" class. Apparently the game didn't want it. So the next step is to come after the Cav?

I tell you what: here's how I'd do it IF it had to be done..
Cav spells and abilities sit on top of whatever class the OSW winner plays ( or whatever they fought with, dunno something like that)

New "Cav players" play as per the book, enforced by nobles. Literally in command of their players IC. We as nobles have the right to demand better RP/ Garb/ Gameplay from Cav players, punishable by expulsion from the "cavalier order" or some *. Something of the like. Who knows. I genuinely care less about the abils, I just don't want people taking GIANT DUMPS on the only class in the game played, RP and garbed by people who give more than zero *.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-07-23

Man, someone should give this Valfryn guy one of them fancy "best attitude in darkon" awards. He speaks with logic and *, Tyriel got it for doing the same thing. Lol
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-23

I have no qualms about people who win noble fights receiving some sort of perk, however I dont feel like it should be a class of their own to play. Classes should not be limited to how good of a fighter you are. Classes should be open for anyone to play.

Now if you want to instill a level requirement (ie giving up rank x class to play) that is fine. Anyone can achieve that through time and commitment to the game. I shouldnt be restricted from playing a Cavalier (Paladin) because Malkin beats me in ring fights. That's just dumb.
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Re: Land Marshal and Assistants

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-23

-Inox- wrote:
Well reasoned, counselor.



Siamon simply cut and paste the verbiage in the original proposal.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-23

fingers630 wrote:I have no qualms about people who win noble fights receiving some sort of perk, however I dont feel like it should be a class of their own to play. Classes should not be limited to how good of a fighter you are. Classes should be open for anyone to play.

Now if you want to instill a level requirement (ie giving up rank x class to play) that is fine. Anyone can achieve that through time and commitment to the game. I shouldnt be restricted from playing a Cavalier (Paladin) because Malkin beats me in ring fights. That's just dumb.


I feel much the same.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-07-23

Sir Aethilgar wrote:
fingers630 wrote:I have no qualms about people who win noble fights receiving some sort of perk, however I dont feel like it should be a class of their own to play. Classes should not be limited to how good of a fighter you are. Classes should be open for anyone to play.

Now if you want to instill a level requirement (ie giving up rank x class to play) that is fine. Anyone can achieve that through time and commitment to the game. I shouldnt be restricted from playing a Cavalier (Paladin) because Malkin beats me in ring fights. That's just dumb.


I feel much the same.

It especially doesn't make sense balance-wise. Why do we give people proven to be some of the best fighters a class that is basically fighter + some more stuff?



...so under my proposal, all fighters must become cavaliers, and when they win a ring fight they can become a regular fighter. :D

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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-07-23

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:It especially doesn't make sense balance-wise. Why do we give people proven to be some of the best fighters a class that is basically fighter + some more stuff?


You might have a point if the things that they were given made them materially better as fighters. However, it doesn't.

So, why shouldn't people who have traditionally demonstrated good garb, RP, service to the game, etc., and who have won in the ring, get a little something extra?

Effort and performance together should equal reward.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-07-23

-Inox- wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:It especially doesn't make sense balance-wise. Why do we give people proven to be some of the best fighters a class that is basically fighter + some more stuff?


You might have a point if the things that they were given made them materially better as fighters. However, it doesn't.

So, why shouldn't people who have traditionally demonstrated good garb, RP, service to the game, etc., and who have won in the ring, get a little something extra?

Effort and performance together should equal reward.

I've seen many wars and campouts where there is a fight going on and then a cavalier steps back and heals themselves and then goes back to fighting.

Does that not make them a more effective fighter? They don't die as quickly.

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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-07-23

Lord Valfryn wrote:I tell you what: here's how I'd do it IF it had to be done..
Cav spells and abilities sit on top of whatever class the OSW winner plays ( or whatever they fought with, dunno something like that)

New "Cav players" play as per the book, enforced by nobles. Literally in command of their players IC. We as nobles have the right to demand better RP/ Garb/ Gameplay from Cav players, punishable by expulsion from the "cavalier order" or some *.


Now we're cooking with gas.

1.) OSW members get Cav abilities (rank abilities only, not weapons or armor or what not) that sit on top of whatever class they are playing.

2.) Open the Cavalier class.

3.) NC members can vote to issue a warning (and subsequent class expulsion) to players who continue to display very low standards of garb, RP, or sportsmanship as Cavaliers.

That seems fair.
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Re: Open Cavalier Class

Post by Inox » 2013-07-23

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:I've seen many wars and campouts where there is a fight going on and then a cavalier steps back and heals themselves and then goes back to fighting.

Does that not make them a more effective fighter? They don't die as quickly.


Not materially. A regular Fighter can tie a First Aid band in a fraction of the time; the Cavalier method requires a full minute of meditation, making it far harder to use in battle. Plus, Fighters have a way to repair their shields and armor. The difference in combat between these two is not significant.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... ly?&path=/

Now, if you gave them automatic Stoneskin on their first hit, or gave them Mage Mending, or let them keep fighting when Mortalled, then that would be something rather significant and overpowering. That would have a meaningful effect on balance. Cavalier abilities are paltry next to the ability to wear plate and have unrestricted shield & melee weapons selection. Both classes have that.
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