Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-06-20

Proposal:

Darkon should stay 16+, campouts should be 18+ to remove ANY chance of a MINOR being involved in ANY bad PR situation for the game.




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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-06-20

Cosign.... Since my country already do this, because of an incident with a 16 yr old (in the country) at a campout when no BigShots of Ched Nasad present.
It almost became something that Darkon would of had to deal with but the guardians took it out on a particular member of Ched Nasad.

No matter how hard you try.... There will always be that * that will try to break the rules and not care who gets hurt.
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Thrush Svartehjertet
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-06-20

LordTyrantCort wrote:No matter how hard you try.... There will always be that * that will try to break the rules and not care who gets hurt.


Wise m*********n' words, yo.

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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

I; respectfully, disagree.

I started playing Darkon when I was 17 and many of us started at similar; or younger, ages. Darkon gave me an outlet as a young man for my creativity... for arts and crafts... for combat and competition... and for learning tools of leadership that I would not have learned otherwise. I have only built on those experiences some 26 years later. While I understand that this proposal is specific to campouts; I would hate to deprive the youths of today a similar experience for our lack of policing ourselves.

However; I, too, will cosign this proposal as I feel the topic needs its day in the Senate. I'll even support it with the following re-write:

Old Text:
"A participant must be at least 16 years old to participate in Darkon. All participants must sign a waiver; any participant under 18 years of age must have a waiver form signed by a parent or guardian."

New Text:
"A participant must be at least 15 years old to participate in Darkon. All participants must sign a waiver; any participant under 18 years of age must have a waiver form signed by a parent or guardian.

A participant must be at least 18 years of age to stay on-site overnight at Darkon camping events unless the participant's parent or guardian is present on-site for the duration of the event."

My thinking for the reduction in age from 16 to 15 is to enable nearly all high school age children to play; if they can go out for high school football, they can play Darkon. (In truth, bringing it back down to 14 wouldn't be horrible. Darkon used to allow 14 year olds as 'squires'; a vet had to sponsor and vouch for them. Buuut, meh. Either way.)

My thinking for the over-night requirement for a parent's or guardian's presence during campouts is so that the child has a responsible adult physically present ~at all times~. Such a person; hopefully another player, would be well aware of what transpires at Darkon camping events and can actively segregate their children as they see fit. Further, in the event of a medical emergency, they will be able to authorize emergency care for their children. This should cover all concerns about an under age participant ~and~ bring us into line with other successful combat games out there like Dag, SCA, etc.

Thoughts?
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-06-20

15 would align us with other foam fighting clubs in the US:

Dagorhir = 15
Belegarth = 15
Amtgard = ? no age restriction?

A note to consider: if you join on your 16th birthday, you may attend 42 day events and only miss out on 10 camping events before you turn 18. Does this really retard your "outlet as a young [person] for [your] creativity... for arts and crafts... for combat and competition... and for learning tools of leadership that [one] would not have learned otherwise"?


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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:15 would align us with other foam fighting clubs in the US.

A note to consider: if you join on your 16th birthday, you may attend 42 day events and only miss out on 10 camping events before you turn 18. Does this really retard your "outlet as a young [person] for [your] creativity... for arts and crafts... for combat and competition... and for learning tools of leadership that [one] would not have learned otherwise"?


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Not by much but campouts do allow for the greatest freedom and, thus, the greatest risk.

15 works by me, it's a happy medium. The SCA is the only game (that I know of) that still allows boffer fighting at 14; heavy at 16.

That all said; I'm 'all in' with my re-write and would support this proposal in the Senate. What say you?
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-06-20

I don't mind the legal guardian caveat for people under 18... That's how Ragnarok is done, and it works at an event with over 1500 nerds... It is the CYA move we are looking for for the club. It IS very hard to police unless you are on a fenced in property with ONE access point like Ragnarok though... Just FYI.

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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-06-20

I will not be at the next event, but I will go to senate and stand behind ANY proposal that removes unsupervised minors at campouts. Any proposal is a step towards what I want to see for the club.

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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

Per Thrush's suggestion:

1. Policy Proposal Name: Participant Age Changes
2. Proposal Originator:
a. name: Baron Aethilgar
b. email: aethilgar@gmail.com
3. Proposal Version: 1.0
4. Date: 06/20/2013
5. Proposal type: Modification of Core Rules
6. Policy term: Permanent
7. Policy statement:
This proposal is address a growing concern for minors participating in Darkon during over-night events.

8. Rationale:
Darkon has a reasonable legal concern for the participation of minors at over-night events at which adults will be engaging in adult activities. This update to the participation age would address this concern and place the responsibilty for minors on their parents or guardians; as well as, provide a method for minors to continue to enjoy Darkon. A reasonable compromise.

9. Text:

Chapter One; New Participant

Old Text:
"A participant must be at least 16 years old to participate in Darkon. All participants must sign a waiver; any participant under 18 years of age must have a waiver form signed by a parent or guardian."

New Text:
"A participant must be at least 15 years old to participate in Darkon. All participants must sign a waiver; any participant under 18 years of age must have a waiver form signed by a parent or guardian.

A participant must be at least 18 years of age to stay on-site overnight at Darkon camping events unless the participant's parent or guardian is present on-site for the duration of the event."
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-06-20

Cosign.


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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Inox » 2013-06-20

The problem here is that they have to be 18 to "stay on-site overnight". They shouldn't even BE THERE in the first place, or at Feasts.

If you want to make a guardian exception, that guardian has to be there the ENTIRE time. Not just if they want to stay overnight.

Personally, I'd rather us have fewer kids than a bunch of parental guardians hovering around in chaperone mode.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-06-20

I actually totally agree with Inox, but I'll take any liability shield we can get to begin with, we can go on to modify later. Or we can just argue here a lot. I like that too! lol

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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

I don't foresee non-player parents hanging out at Darkon for a weekend just so that their kid can play. I can see players who have a minor who also plays staying overnight at a campout.

And, as written, the parent/guardian must be on-site with the minor the entire time. If the parent leaves the site, the minor leaves the site.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by fingers630 » 2013-06-20

-Inox- wrote:If you want to make a guardian exception, that guardian has to be there the ENTIRE time. Not just if they want to stay overnight.


Id cosign this 100%. 18+ for campouts UNLESS legal guardian, who must also be an active member of Darkon in good standing, is present. If at any time guardian leaves, they must take minor with them off site.

Good kids with good parents shouldnt be penalized for the few idiots that the game has out there.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

fingers630 wrote:
-Inox- wrote:If you want to make a guardian exception, that guardian has to be there the ENTIRE time. Not just if they want to stay overnight.


Id cosign this 100%. 18+ for campouts UNLESS legal guardian, who must also be an active member of Darkon in good standing, is present. If at any time guardian leaves, they must take minor with them off site.

Good kids with good parents shouldnt be penalized for the few idiots that the game has out there.


I'll update to:

"A participant must be at least 18 years of age to stay on-site overnight at Darkon camping events unless the participant's parent or guardian is a member of Darkon and is present on-site for the duration of the event."

Forwarding up the chain...
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by jayjay » 2013-06-20

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:Amtgard = ? no age restriction?


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it's 14, though the chapter monarch (like the pres in darkon) is allowed to grant specific exceptions that would only last for his/her reign (6 months). this is basically because a LOT of amtgarders started out young but have families now and want to be able to engage their own kids in their hobby. there are many parks that will do the occasional kids day and allow younger kids to play in a kids only game.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

So...

Dagorhir = 15
Belegarth = 15
Amtgard = 14
SCA = 14 (padded), 16 (rattan)

Sounds like this proposal will bring us closer to alignment with the nation/world wide organizations.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-06-20

The only thing left i if we want to honor temporary guardianship for events. People can do that.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-06-20

I have a few questions....
Define guardian?
How do we prove that this person is "The Guardian"
Who will define someone as a member in good standing.
And will they be linked to the hip of their babysitter/guardian?

We don't know each other outside of the brief encounters that we run across each other in... As a whole. I don't care if people do stupid * around me... But I wouldn't bring my nephew around a Darkon campout until he is older. I don't have eyes everywhere. And since I only "know" 10% of you people, I only trust 5% of you people. Now I am not saying that someone would walk up to him when I wasn't looking and give my nephew drugs, like the movies my parents watched about school yard pushers. But what I am saying is there are some of you that don't have my same views and values. You are adults... Do your thing and I will do mine, and some of mine I don't think some of you approve of.... The risks of issues have grown largely since I joined and it not because people are being greater idiots, it's because there are a greater number of them per capita, and they feed off of each other.
Seb has said it before, I don't want to be around your kids or have to feel that I should babysit them when I go play my adult game.
16 at day events and 18 at campouts. No issues, no problems.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

Guardian in the legal sense. I can amend the text to specify.
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-06-20

So if someone shows up to an event with notarized papers of temporary legal guardianship, that would be ok?
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Re: Proposal: Making Campouts 18+

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-20

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:So if someone shows up to an event with notarized papers of temporary legal guardianship, that would be ok?


Legal guardianship papers; temp or otherwise, is all Darkon would need to place a minor in an adult's care and do the requisite CYA.
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