Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

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Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Snudge » 2013-07-06

Discussion thread

Clerics are the most overpowered class in the game. They can use the strongest weapon combination in tower sheilds+flail/morning star. They have res, which is the only high level spell that can be made into a potion.
They wear plate. They need to be balanced a bit. My thoughts on this are a list of ideas, pick one from the list or add a suggestion


1.) Clerics cannot wear above AC3, also give fighters and cavs something to be proud of as only classes that can wear AC4
2.) Res cannot be made into a potion anymore, and all res potions become cure mortal
3.) Restrict their shield size

My personal choice is #2
Thoughts? Other ways to possibly balance this class?
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-07-06

Is it that time of the year again?
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-06

Give them White Swords and call it a day. Then they are balanced.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-06

Rofl, give everyone whiteswords and heal spells, done.

I have been a firm proponent of the AC3 cleric for some time. I would even say it'd be cool to have them rock plate greaves helm and bracers. Torso and arm chain. Then we have the "Templar" look going on for our clerics, and they're better game balanced and they don't have to flip their * over finding decent ar3 armor for their lower extremities
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Inox » 2013-07-06

fingers630 wrote:Give them White Swords and call it a day. Then they are balanced.


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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-07-06

I would think the armor changes did a bit to nerf clerics . It's harder to kill to armor with a yellow chained weapon now. Monks and Druids now get a head shot. A 5oz piece of leather blocks a shot. Flail and tower shield isn't quite as powerful as it used to be. White/red sword and shield looks to be the most powerful combo with the changes, in my opinion anyway.

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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-06

-Inox- wrote:
fingers630 wrote:Give them White Swords and call it a day. Then they are balanced.


Image


LOL

Hey I was all for giving clerics white swords, 36" max shield size, and a max armor rating (though I believe plate already purchased should be grandfathered, and just counted as lesser armor with an armband and self hit calling)
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-07-06

I think clerics are ok the way they are. The clerics power only comes into play after the battle is over. They need to survive to that point. Plate and flail and tower shield is not that hard to fight, and its not over powered. I will also agree that yellow took a nerf in the new armor rules.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-07

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I think clerics are ok the way they are. The clerics power only comes into play after the battle is over. They need to survive to that point. Plate and flail and tower shield is not that hard to fight, and its not over powered. I will also agree that yellow took a nerf in the new armor rules.



Truth. And even then, in how many Darkon battles do clerics actually run around healing folks? Yes, clerics are a strong class... in camp outs and adventures... but not nearly the fearful powerhouse they are perceived to be during most Darkon events.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Calus » 2013-07-08

They aren't quite as OP since the armor hit changes, but I still think they are the go-to class for people wanting "a fighter that heals".

Someone put it eloquently a long time ago, fighters should be the best fighters, period.

I would vote for giving them AC3.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by fingers630 » 2013-07-08

If you wanna be the best fighter, practice at it. Fighters shouldnt need anything to be the best fighter besides skill and will son.

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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-07-08

I have a cleric and a fighter. I play my fighter more often because stabby swords are better than a flail, IMO. You can chew through armor faster with one, and lightly-armored people are more easily-defeated with one.

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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-08

The fastest way to nerf a cleric is to wear a helmet.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Inox » 2013-07-08

exoduscleric wrote:I would think the armor changes did a bit to nerf clerics . It's harder to kill to armor with a yellow chained weapon now. Monks and Druids now get a head shot. A 5oz piece of leather blocks a shot. Flail and tower shield isn't quite as powerful as it used to be. White/red sword and shield looks to be the most powerful combo with the changes, in my opinion anyway.


White/Red swords are good, but chewing through armor with a White is as slow as with a Yellow.

...and there are still plenty of people with no helmets on out there. Probably always will be, because helmets are generally hot & uncomfortable.

What makes Clerics powerful is that they have immense defensive capability, and can Res people. Armor (and to a lesser extent, shields) are how we represent hit points in Darkon. Clerics have max tier hit points, and if they are good at what they are doing (I am looking at Exodus, Caedes, & Rennard, here) they can quickly Res people in the middle of battle.

On Adventure days, the Prayer Touch Res is even more decisive.

Plus they have a full suite of other spells, can create Res potions, and get what is still a very effective Darkon weapon.

If they had White swords, it'd be a fools choice to play a Fighter.

Before we could consider that for Clerics, we'd have to drop their shield and AC overall. So maybe Fingers & I are in agreement on that.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Snudge » 2013-07-08

just for the record, the highest level spell a mage or a druid can make into a potion is level 7
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-07-10

fingers630 wrote:If you wanna be the best fighter, practice at it. Fighters shouldnt need anything to be the best fighter besides skill and will son.

Testify Thrush.



CAN I GET AN AMEN?!?!?!


Also, take away bars and quillions. Round = yellow, flat = white/black. Also, fighters should shield break with anything swung over 6 feet in total length, no one else should shield break with any weapons.

Do what you want with clerics.


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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-07-10

fingers630 wrote:If you wanna be the best fighter, practice at it. Fighters shouldnt need anything to be the best fighter besides skill and will son.

Testify Thrush.



An interesting thing I've observed, which can't be proven, is that so many people hate being beaten by fighters (who can ONLY get better at ACTUALLY beating you to win, like Fingers said) that they've tried to figure out ways to make all classes "fair", while missing the point that they are stacking up game mechanics against something that is not a mechanic of Darkon: actual fighting skill.

Know why fighters don't get anything like I suggest? 'Cause bitches hate losing.

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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-10

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Also, take away bars and quillions. Round = yellow, flat = white/black. Also, fighters should shield break with anything swung over 6 feet in total length, no one else should shield break with any weapons.


I like quillions on swords. While they rarely serve their historical purpose, they often make the weapon's silhouette appear 'correct'. And, to me, that's very important. When non-players look out on the field; what they perceive has value to the organization. If they see the silhouette of a sword; even an exaggerated foam sword, that is what will stick in their mind. People fighting with swords. It goes hand in hand with your extolling good garb and/or armor. There is little cost, little weight, and little time in putting a quillion on a weapon... why not do them?

The bar weapon (my proposal) was primarily proposed to give clerics a 'yellow' weapon option that was not terrible or of goofy construction. This was, of course, back in the 80s when we still used 3"+ of open cell foam on shield faces. The weapon tech wasn't at a place where maces, hammers, clubs, and the like could be made both safe and wieldy. The bar; quillion-less swords, allowed for the construction of safe 'yellow' weapons using the tech of the age. The tech has changed significantly in nearly three decades since the bar was born. Pool noodles alone make for a safe, if extremely disposable, club that fights similarly to most swords today. While I would be heavy-hearted to see the bar fade from use; I don't think I'd oppose it's passing simply because there are safe and effective alternatives available that don't meta-game the penalty of a sword without quillions.

Making shield-breaking a fighter / cavalier ability was a recent proposal, no? What ever became of it?
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-07-10

I would agree with you about the quillion thing Aethilgar if only qulllions didn't look like crap on the field. Most of the time its just a piece of blue foam half ass taped to the handle with grey duct tape and looks nothing like a quillion. Also, they serve no purpose unless extremely over built.

I'm not sure why the shield breaking thing did not go through, I think there were some wording things that needed to be worked out. I could be wrong.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-11

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I would agree with you about the quillion thing Aethilgar if only qulllions didn't look like crap on the field. Most of the time its just a piece of blue foam half * taped to the handle with grey duct tape and looks nothing like a quillion. Also, they serve no purpose unless extremely over built.

I'm not sure why the shield breaking thing did not go through, I think there were some wording things that needed to be worked out. I could be wrong.


According to the rules:
"The most important consideration when constructing weapons and armor must always be safety. Weapon and Armor Marshals may fail a piece of equipment at any time if it is deemed unsafe, even if it has passed a Marshals inspection previously. Secondary considerations when constructing Darkon weapons and armor should be playability, realism, and appearance. Participants should attempt to construct their gear in such a
way as to have a realistic appearance and performance."

It would seem to me that a marshal could fail a weapon under the secondary consideration of 'looks like crap'. As we demand a higher level of appearance from our costuming; there is no reason we shouldn't do the same for armor and weapons.
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-07-11

^^^ this is true, doo-doo weapons, I'm coming for you!!!!!
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-11

Lord Valfryn wrote:^^^ this is true, doo-doo weapons, I'm coming for you!!!!!


Sick'em!
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-07-12

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Until we stop making our weapons out of FOAM, and allow BLACK OR GREY covers, FLAT should equal SWORD and ROUND should equal CLUB. All I hear from people who argue this fact is LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA... Sorry.

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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-07-12

Weapon covers can be 'black, gray, or brown'.

I don't mind flat being a requirement for swords and round for clubs. I do think that handles should be distinct and include a guard of some type which delineates the end of a blade and beginning of a handle. Otherwise many of us would be fighting with foam paddles that look like crap. (Kai has a very good example of a low profile guard/handle.)
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Re: Clerics are overpowered-Discussion

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2013-07-12

So this doesn't look enough like a sword to do white damage:
Image
?

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