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"Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Guy The Bloodied
This has probably been brought up long ago on the DUMB, but why are there skills that are deemed "Adventure Only"? Would there be a terrible balance issue if all classes were able to use any of their skills at any event?

As always, just curious.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Ogre Solaris
I have often wondered what the harm would be in me throwing Turn Undead at someone during two teams.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Lord Dubh
Well, no one knows for sure. That is why we have designated so many days as 'adventure days' so all skills are usable.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Amazing_Iltztafein
I only could see a balance issue for a war action, really.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by BaiterofBAMC
A spell like growth would be a pain in the ass on regular battle days. I think the separation is to help limit the complexity for new people to assimilate.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Sir Caetrel
Adventure spells complicate quick and fun two teams and other field battles. Pouch, Prayer Touch, the former Time Stop, Giant Growth, Gaseous Form...let alone Assassinate.

We at least get to keep the majority of our magic and class system for all events. In Amtgard for example their class and spell rules are so cumbersome and powerful they don't even use them for the majority of what they do. It's like two separate games and cultures.

What makes Darkon great is our spell and class system is manageable enough that we can use most all of our class defining abilities all the time. I think it's been a good call that the more cumbersome and powerful abilities have been reserved for adventures, it makes good sense.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Inox
Yeah, what Sir Caetrel said. :D

The spells and skills he mentioned have disproportionate effects. Others, like Immunity to Disease, Detect Traps, or Light, just don't come up during day battles.

In my opinion, that means we should dial the overpowering ones back, and then just have one set of abilities all the time.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Amazing_Iltztafein
How would one dial-back "Gaseous Form"? It's already so simple.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by jayjay
-Inox- wrote:, or Light,


but what about Light sabers?

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Inox
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:How would one dial-back "Gaseous Form"? It's already so simple.



Simple isn't the issue. Time Stop was simple, too.

The issue with Gaseous at normal events is that some people like to get into Gaseous at the start of every battle and follow people around in nigh invulnerable form, waiting to suddenly grapple, get a free set of stabs, etc.

Make it last less time (say 30 seconds). Problem solved. It's still useful for getting out of a bind, but it's not something people can wander around in at length.

Disguise? Make it so that you cannot pretend to be a member of a country you are not in (much like we removed the ability to impersonate specific people...yes, that existed). Then, it becomes useful in simply either keeping people from finding you or knowing that you did a specific thing.

Growth? Change it so that it now allows you to stand vs. giant-class opponents, and that's it. No one has to get on their knees if there aren't actual giant-class foes present.

Make any spell that holds a spell (Pouch, Prayer Touch, Magic Stone) only usable on spells of 5th rank or below.

Assassinate would have to change as well, but I am not going to open that can of worms in this post. :D

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Amazing_Iltztafein
-Inox- wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:How would one dial-back "Gaseous Form"? It's already so simple.



Simple isn't the issue. Time Stop was simple, too.

The issue with Gaseous at normal events is that some people like to get into Gaseous at the start of every battle and follow people around in nigh invulnerable form, waiting to suddenly grapple, get a free set of stabs, etc.

Make it last less time (say 30 seconds). Problem solved. It's still useful for getting out of a bind, but it's not something people can wander around in at length.

Disguise? Make it so that you cannot pretend to be a member of a country you are not in (much like we removed the ability to impersonate specific people...yes, that existed). Then, it becomes useful in simply either keeping people from finding you or knowing that you did a specific thing.

Yeaaaaah. I'm going to have to go with "no" for both of those. They completely hinder an interesting use of the ability and radically alter them in a way that makes them pretty useless. What is the payoff? Using them at day battles? Not worth it.

Make any spell that holds a spell (Pouch, Prayer Touch, Magic Stone) only usable on spells of 5th rank or below.

Yeah, again, that radically changes a lot of cool ways people have to play with their sells now.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by fingers630
Make it so that you cannot pretend to be a member of a country you are not in


This is the worst thing Ive ever heard =P

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-06
by Lord Dubh
fingers630 wrote:Make it so that you cannot pretend to be a member of a country you are not in


This is the worst thing Ive ever heard =P


You may be joking but I think it is the DUMBEST thing Inox has ever said.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-07
by fingers630
Well I was being nice, but yes. Would make the skill useless.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-07
by Kobalos
Perhaps what he was getting at was to allow Thieves & Assassins to up-armor to AR2, since their two-team skills are pretty limited (Backstab, Loot).

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-07
by Taggart MacBannion
Hey backstab is a pretty good two-team ability. Sometimes I wish I actually fielded my sketchy to use it because I tend to fight that way anyway. And also wayyyyyyyyyyy no on this "dial-back" idea. That's uh...silly to say the least.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by fingers630
I support the Giant Growth change and suggested it months ago :)

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by LordTyrantCort
I too support the growth change and Said it days before that fingers guy suggested it.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by Garwa Mayharr
fingers630 wrote:I support the Giant Growth change and suggested it months ago :)


So how would you then change growth to still give the player using growth an advantage of being taller?

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by LordTyrantCort
He stole my idea [;)>
Make it so the Mage can use it on himself or another guy to make them be able to fight la giants standing up, but not forcing the pc to "kneel before" the enchanted PC.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by fingers630
Correct. I think Cort and I both thought of it the same time, however he posted it before I did, as I was out picking up chicks and he was in the dungeons of his house, with his D&D books and mountain dew ;)

growth would make the player not have to get on their knees vs giants, that is it. no more forcing others onto their knees.

by the way, while we are on the topic, there is nothing written that states you may stand up if a "Giant" gets on their knees. that is just something darkonians started doing, and people accepted it.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by Inox
Lord Dubh wrote:
fingers630 wrote:Make it so that you cannot pretend to be a member of a country you are not in


This is the worst thing Ive ever heard =P


You may be joking but I think it is the DUMBEST thing Inox has ever said.



So much for courtesy on the boards.

Anyhow, I don't see why Disguise needs to be used to impersonate country members to be useful.

Right now, say I had an Assassin. I could Disguise myself as a generic Fighter or what-have-you, and when I made my hit, there could be no witnesses that *I* did it. Even if I die, there is no mechanism in the game for removing Disguise (except perhaps some illegal metagaming).

Plus, after my hit, I could Disguise as a random merchant, and no one looking for that Fighter would ever find me, even if they figured out *I* was in Disguise (which is pretty easy to prevent). Plus, had I been Disguised the entire time, people would later not even have seen me on that Adventure or what not, making me a difficult point of investigation.

You can't tell me that's not already pretty significantly powerful used in that way.

I don't see impersonating country members as much different than the old (and incredibly silly) practice of impersonating specific people. With countries like the Forgotten Ones, which were WYSIWYG members, how exactly is a person supposed to pretend to be a mystery member?

It also seems to give an advantage to Retinues & Guilds, as those are one-for-one, and no Disguise efforts are really possible.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by Kobalos
Actually, House Dubh's description on the wiki includes allowances for disguising yourself as a House member. http://www.darkon.org/wiki/index.php?ti ... _Fair_Play:

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by Sir Caetrel
I've never played a mage, not even on tv, have no great love for mages, have no dog in this race etc...But what exactly is wrong with Giant Growth as is? Feel unsafe, or uncomfortable, or annoying?

If the idea is to make everything "battle" spells, and you change GG to only stand in the presence of giants, you are by default making it adventure only. Because only on adventures will you have giant NPCs, and I suppose land searches. So effectively it is just a nerf to the ability without any other real benefit to streamlining the rules. I just don't believe in nerfs unless absolutely necessary. There is a great deal of countermeasure and counterbalance in Darkon.

Mages go a long way towards countering other mages. So instead of nerfing mages, why not recruit some into your country? Nerfing abilities will just decrease the population of that class and push us closer to being like some of these other foam fighting games.

Lots of things give an advantage in Darkon. Armor, good stab tips, spells, sheer numbers. My suggestion: big countries with lots of armor, lots of stab tips, lots of casters. We're better off improving ourselves than taking away from others. Or is a giant Fingers really that scary?

I do think there is some merit in the sustenance ideas being discussed elsewhere...so long as the flavor and potence of spells remain in the game.

Re: "Adventure Only"

Posted: 2012-03-08
by LordTyrantCort
Buddy you missed out on the, I think 50 some pages of posts about GG on the DUMB.

people's lives were threatened and it came to a draw due to the creation of this set of boards. But our friend Inox can enlighten ya on why he and others wanted GG removed from the game.

A lot disagreed with him, but many felt their knees could be saved due to its removal.

Let the debates begin....