Increased Dues Question

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Kesrya
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Increased Dues Question

Post by Kesrya » 2012-03-19

I'd like an official ruling from the Pres or EB regarding attending day events without signing in. I know that, given our liability insurance for guests on site at campouts, everyone must pay to be there regardless of whether they plan to fight or not.

I'm wondering if the same is true regarding day events? For the last year, I have been unable to field because I have a baby to attend to, but I have enjoyed on good weather days coming to day events and watching the action, chatting with my countrymembers, and representing my country as an elder player in Senate so that my teammates can continue to have fun on the field. I typically drop the $2 to sign-in and get a credit and support the club, though I have long since passed the point where my characters receive any benefit from getting more credits.

I completely support and understand the need to increase dues, but given financial constraints and the desire of my family to purchase a new home shortly, I might think twice about dropping $5 at each event knowing that I'm not even going to step foot on the battlefield (I would ALWAYS check-in if I planned to fight, and get my weapons checked - so please don't mis-read that I am suggesting that).

I'm merely asking: if I know 100% that I will just be standing with my baby on the sidelines all day, not fighting, and not desiring a participation credit, is it permissible for me not to "check-in" at day-events? Thanks for clarify this for me.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-03-19

Short answer,

Our events are public and anyone can come watch. However, if you intend to participate in anyway you need to check in per usual and the rules, to include costumes and fee's.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-03-21

Lord Dubh wrote:Short answer,

Our events are public and anyone can come watch. However, if you intend to participate in anyway you need to check in per usual and the rules, to include costumes and fee's.


Yeah, don't go to Senate... Other than Campouts, it's all in public areas, you don't even have to dress up...

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Kesrya
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Kesrya » 2012-03-30

Okay thanks for answering - and like I said, up until now I've always paid regardless - I'm just not as interested in dropping $5 each time I come to sit in a lawn chair on the sidelines corralling a baby all day while everyone else takes the field.

As for Senate - that's kind of funny. I understand why that would be the case - but the thought of paying $5 for the task of sitting in Senate and listening to all the complaining and moaning so that my other countrymembers can have fun - I just find it funny. I think maybe my countrymembers should pay me $5 each time I sit through that.

That brings up a question though - I honestly view sitting in Senate as a service to the game. A good Senator is there to listen with thought and consideration to proposals and make decisions with the interest of all players in mind, to benefit the game. Senators give up their playing time because Senate is held during events. It's held during events not because that is a bylaw requirement, but because it would not likely get quorum if it wasn't held then.

So this begs the question - when the other two governing bodies (EB and NC) meet to conduct their required business as per the bylaws - are they required to dress in costume and pay their dues in order to participate in those meetings?
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by ylinett » 2012-03-30

Our meetings are via conference call. As such we are all attired in 100% period birthday suits.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-03-30

Kesrya wrote:Okay thanks for answering - and like I said, up until now I've always paid regardless - I'm just not as interested in dropping $5 each time I come to sit in a lawn chair on the sidelines corralling a baby all day while everyone else takes the field.

So this begs the question - when the other two governing bodies (EB and NC) meet to conduct their required business as per the bylaws - are they required to dress in costume and pay their dues in order to participate in those meetings?


I have been on the EB and currently serve on the NC ... that being said I have never gotten 1 single battle credit toward any character because I went to a meeting. on the other hand those who go and elder at events do get a extra credit.

Senate is at events... you do not have to drive to anywhere outside of a event ... you do not have to take time away from other activites to serve in the senate as a senator (besides maby reading and discussing proposals with your country)

So because you get a credit at events you have to have a costume on to particapate - when you are in senate you are going over in game rules related in some way to how we fight or cast spells or particapate in the game.

The NC and the EB both have to do things at meetings outside of in game and in character things - permits for sites - reviewing rule breaking and wheather the player will be able to continue to participate in game ... game safety mehanics... ect... no we do not dress up to have these meetings ... only the EB currently has online meetings because of the small amount of people involved ... the NC always meets in person and over 1/2 of the people going to these meetings have to drive more then one hour to get to these meetings (where we do not get any battle credits for volunteering to attend).

I hope that gives you a idea of the volunteerism that some people in the EB and the NC do for the game. Remember we do not get credit toward our characters nor do we recieve payment for these meetings. In the case of senators they chose to attend senate meetings instead of fighting so as to discuss in game topics while they get credit for the day by attending and if they so chose they can fight before and after the meetings. At NC and EB meetings I have yet to fight or practice with foam weapons other then to perform safety tests.
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Lord Dubh
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-02

When the EB and NC meet at a scheduled Darkon game event, they are in costume and paying fee's. When the Senate meets outside of game event days we won't worry about the costuming or fees.

These issues are also being addressed in the new bylaws to clarify membership and involvement.

In the mean time, to take part in any Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. activity at a scheduled game event you have to be in costume and pay the fee.
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fingers630
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-02

Just out of curiousity, what is the influx in funds going to be used for? Better sites, more stuff for the games, Relics that actually are on the field?
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Taggart MacBannion » 2012-04-02

I am starting the "Get Taggart a car" foundation through the increased dues that the club is getting. Thank you all.
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Kesrya
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Kesrya » 2012-04-02

Cailen - I am wellllll aware of what the EB and NC does in its meeting, being married to someone who has sat / currently sits on both, as well as having a best friend who has also sat on / currently sits on both. I have physically been in attendance when both EB and NC meetings have been conducted, at times being the driver to said meetings and sitting downstairs or outside while the meeting occurs. I'm not in any way saying that the EB and NC is not serving the game, nor am I saying that they don't make sacrifices to conduct such service.

I think it is faulty logic to say that Senate is somehow less of a by-law required governing body simply because the topics they are required to discuss differ from those of the EB and NC. Nothing discussed by the Senate is in-game. The Senate discusses the rules and policies of the game - this is, by its nature, an out-of-game and out-of-character discussion. Said rules affect in-game play - just as safety issues affect in-game play, just as enforcing the rules by sanctioning members affects in-game play. The specifics of what each of three governing bodies discusses is different - but it is all out-of-game discussions, and they all affect how the membership at large participates in the game.

I hear you about receiving credit. Remember that Senators only receive credit if the Senate meeting lasts for a specified period of time. And really, this argument also is faulty - because what I am asking is, if I don't check in (and therefore don't receive any credit or any extra credit for participation), can I still participate in the out-of-game task of serving on a governing body? So by your logic here, if I forgo the extra credit, then the answer would be Yes. However, our President is clearly saying - No - even if i receive no credit, I must still "check-in" to participate in Senate.

I do realize you take time out of your life to attend EB or NC meetings. You are making an assumption that the same is not true for participation in Senate. All of the current day event locations are a minimum hour drive from my home. Many weekends, I have professional obligations or other activities I would like to do. I can no longer fight at Darkon unless I pay money for a babysitter, so for that reason - I don't often attend anymore because I'd rather be doing something else. But I care about Senate and the rules of the game. So attending Senate is not simply something I would do in addition to attending an event that I happened to be going to anyways, but rather I attend Darkon with the sole purpose of serving the game by sitting in Senate.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this - it just came to my attention that there might be a little bit of a hypocritical situation going on here. I've seen times in the past when the EB held a meeting at an event site prior to check-in, and EB members who didn't plan to stay for the day because they had other responsibilities didn't get dressed up and didn't check in. I've seen times where our king has shown up in his street clothes because he couldn't stay long, and he threw on an elder surcoat and helped to elder for an hour before leaving - I'm guessing he didn't pay his dues that day - why would he, he wasn't planning on playing the game. I've heard that there are certain good samaritan members who will show up to help check weapons even if they cannot stay for the day. They don't check-in because they leave and go home after weapons check closes. They are only there to help out for an hour.

I'm not trying to say that all of these people should have checked-in. I actually feel the opposite -- these people were giving service to the game for a few minutes or an hour out of the kindness of their heart, but for whatever reason, were unable to stay and participate in-character at the event. They didn't receive credit, they didn't have fun - they just gave their time to making sure the game runs properly. Attending Senate *could* be no different for someone that isn't fighting. Should all of these people be required to dress up fully and pay $5? The current policy says yes, they should - I'm just not sure that policy is uniformly enforced. Who is going to be the jerk who walks up to elder-coated Slindar that one day and says, "uh, by the way - I know you are just about to go home but before you leave, pay me your money cause technically you participated in the game today."

I understand that the President has stated this is against the rules - and so I want to make it clear that I will, from here forward, pay my $5 whenever I sit in Senate (or I will notify my country leader that I am ineligible to sit in Senate if I have not paid my dues for the day).

But this whole thing just got me thinking about some of the inconsistencies I see; and a policy I perceive as being rather unfair to the people who care the most about serving Darkon. Asking someone who is purely doing service to the game to pay a fee in order to perform said service is, in my opinion, going to discourage service.

Machate - I know these things are being addressed by the bylaw committee. Would you be willing to forward my concerns to that committee for consideration. I'm not really sure if they can address this in the bylaw changes - but I think it is worth consideration. And until then, I hope that this policy is applied uniformly.
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Kesrya
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Kesrya » 2012-04-02

P.S. This board needs a "Like" button so I can thumbs up Yaron's birthday suit post!
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Wulfen Freki
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Wulfen Freki » 2012-04-02

fingers630 wrote:Just out of curiousity, what is the influx in funds going to be used for? Better sites, more stuff for the games, Relics that actually are on the field?


To sort-of half-way answer your question; As the previous Treasurer, we used sites last year that were vastly more expensive than previous years and I tried to get people to run better campouts by offering a larger refund. All of this leads to having less money to run the club the next year, and the increase is necessary.
The new sites being used are requiring more insurance and thusly costing us more; insuring a bunch of weirdos weilding foam weapons playing a "sport" isnt cheap.

That being said, I cannot speak as to the cost of the new sites being used or what the EB is refunding for campouts or any of that other stuff.

But it was needed. Thank you 2012 EB!
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-03

fingers630 wrote:Just out of curiousity, what is the influx in funds going to be used for? Better sites, more stuff for the games, Relics that actually are on the field?


At some point towards the end of the year we should be able to present a balance sheet. In fact, one should be available for each year but due to lack of organization on our part this is not possible.

The short answer is, sites are expensive, coins are expensive, everything is expensive...
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-04

Oh Im fine with the increase, I was just curious as to where the money was going thanks :)
Anything that gives us better sites, cooler *, etc is always a good thing.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Inox » 2012-04-04

Kesrya wrote:I'm not trying to be a jerk about this - it just came to my attention that there might be a little bit of a hypocritical situation going on here. I've seen times in the past when the EB held a meeting at an event site prior to check-in, and EB members who didn't plan to stay for the day because they had other responsibilities didn't get dressed up and didn't check in.


There is NO, I repeat NO reasonable comparison between sitting in Senate (always at an event) to discuss rules, and either:

1.) Sitting on the EB, frequently meeting outside of Darkon, and bearing a huge administrative responsibility to the game which you MUST perform for the year (or the game suffers)

2.) Sitting in the NC, frequently meeting outside of Darkon, and spending hours at a go discussing contentious discipline & safety issues (or the game suffers). That's not even to get into the admission of new Nobles, which is harrowing to say the least.

As a Senator, you can easily not go to Senate, or send someone else. Don't feel like attending? No one's expecting you to, and no one relies on you. Hell, Elidor's used Amy & Beth (or others) as Senators much of the time. No one says, "*, Tracy's not here in Senate today. Where is she? Can we even vote on this issue, or discuss it? Do we have quorum? Will we be able to hold the next event now?"

Try being the Treasurer, and not handling the taking of dues at events, making regular bank deposits, or paying on time for any of the myriad things like insurance and site fees. Can't shrug it.

Again, the EB & NC are commitments of responsibility that primarily occur outside of Darkon, and take a lot of personal time and mental energy to do properly. I've enjoyed time spent listening to rules in Senate and arguing; sometimes it sucks, but it does not always. I have never said, "Wow, that EB/NC meeting was actually kind of fun, in a way."

Besides, again, Senate's some time at an event, when I still get fighting and/or socializing time with the other 200+ people there. I don't have to make a long drive on my day off to meet with a cadre of surly people in someone's living room and talk about who's been shrugging shots, and who's going to do something about it.

Charging EB & NC members to meet would be about the most peevish, petty, and destructive-to-the-game thing I can think of off the top of my head.
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fingers630
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-04

I dont think Tracy was advocating that they be charged, but merely mentioning the double standard of who is required to be in costume at events. I understand the way things are how they are, but also see her point about people showing up for a brief amount of time to help out the game (as a senator) and being required to be in costume for it.

Of course I am not a costume nazi as some are, and people wearing sweat pants and nikes doesnt ruin my fantasy when I swing a fake sword at them.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-04

Kesrya I understand what you are saying and am sorry it seems like a double standard - I think the main hurtle is the following...

insurance

The bylaws commitee had to address and is in the process of adressing what a member to the organization is and what makes a person qualify to be covered under insurance.

To my knowledge when you sign in you then become covered at the event you are attending.. if you do not sign in then by default you are not covered under the policy. This could be extended to causing a problem with insurance when a player does not check in but is on site at a private event... By default they would not be covered and that puts our club in a situation where we would not have some of our members covered thereby making it possible we could loose sites and insurance altogether or we would have to have our coverage have a special clause written in to cover this possibility which would cause our rates to go up to the point we would fail to have the funds to cover it and thereby have to raise the player costs at events to cover it.

With the idea of comparing senate and nc or eb meetings this comes into play clearly... A player meeting at a private home or public meeting site is not covered by our insurance in any way. They are not considered players nor do they need to be covered under the insurance. They do not pay dues nor do they wear a costume or be required to because in essence they are not then covered during the meeting by our insurance.

We take into effect that to be covered under the insurance you have to sign in as a player thereby protecting the club from a lawsuit and protecting those who let us use thier property to play.

there are several solutions...
1. senate meetings are done not at events (would lower participation greatly or cause us to have a nightmare finding a place to hold it)
2. Write a clause into our insurance to cover senate attendees (would jack up our insurance price)
3. just allow people to show up to senate and not pay dues thereby not getting credit OR being covered by our insurance (the insurance company may drop us or we would loose sites to do our game)
4. We make sure every player pays the 5$ and wears mimium garb (a pain in the ass but the best solution)

As far as paople attending without wearing a costume and paying dues in any way with a darkon event it is the marshal and EB job to make sure they meet the requirements for paying dues and being in garb. If there was a slip up in this area then it needs to be addressed with the EB and the marshals.

The first solution is for people to actually care about having minium garb and doing what is right (I am driving to the Easter battle for the sole reason to bring equipment to help Fingers have what he needs for the event... because it is Easter I am looking for local events in baltimore that I can take my family to for allowing me to do this service for the game I will probably drop them off at the Easter time at the zoo then perform my duties for the game and join them after) When I show up I will throw on a tunic and check in and drop off what he needs then get in the car and go spend time with my family. I will be paying 5 dollars to spend 3+ hours travel time in the car for 20 minutes on site.

Again I know it is a pain and it does not make sense but it is what we have to do to keep our insurance and the sites we use.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Inox » 2012-04-04

Good lord this is not that difficult, people. We don't even really need to say much.

The only possible exception for people not checking in at an event is someone who handles the club's administration (an EB member) showing up briefly to make sure an event happens (e.g permits are in order), and then leaving.

Anyone else at any other time should check in, pay dues, and be in costume when they do so.

No one should ever pay any dues unless at an official Darkon event.

This is a no-brainer.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Inox » 2012-04-04

fingers630 wrote:I dont think Tracy was advocating that they be charged, but merely mentioning the double standard of who is required to be in costume at events.


She said, "So this begs the question - when the other two governing bodies (EB and NC) meet to conduct their required business as per the bylaws - are they required to dress in costume and pay their dues in order to participate in those meetings?"

Also this is a thread about dues, not costumes. The focus was on having to pay to participate in Senate.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by GAWARR1 » 2012-04-04

seems fairly black and white to me, if you plan on participating in the game at an event then you dress and pay. those performing an essential duty before events they will not be participating in or outside the game entirely are not required to dress or pay. i say thank you to the eb and nc (both past and present) for ensuring there was even a darkon for me to return to.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Kesrya » 2012-04-09

Thank you Cailen - your response spoke to my original inquiry regarding insurance coverage, and I did not know whether insurance coverage was different between campouts (private property) and day-events (public property). You answered that question for me, and I do understand the dilemma / decision presented as a result of that.

I'd love to see number 3 be possible, but I can understand the difficulties present in this. Number 4 is not being uniformly enforced. Case in point this weekend, when an EB member showed up in mundanes to check everyone in before leaving for Easter holiday.

Again, I'm not trying to single out this occurrence, but rather point to the double standard that is created. I think number 3 should be the case for everyone who is only working at an event (ie. not fighting or playing at all that day - just performing a role required by the current bylaws in order for the game to legally maintain its charter - which includes EB roles, weapon marshals, elders, and Senate).

Having worked for multiple non-profits, and currently serving as the president for my state professional association, Board members and volunteers who are working at an event are often giving complimentary entrance because of the fact that they will be working the entire event and therefore not benefiting from it in any way. They are still covered under the insurance for the day. So it is possible to do, just may be more difficult - as you said.

Without getting into an unrelated and subjective argument over which governing body is more valuable to the game or more fun / less fun to participate in - Senate is required by our bylaws. It must meet a certain number of times by our bylaws, and it must reach quorum. Violating these requirements would open our charter up to be revoked, period. So participation in Senate is a job that needs to be done just like any other job. Sure, multiple people can do it - and someone else can sit in the Treasury line in place of the Treasurer if she cannot be there that day. We can all delegate the duties amongst ourselves, that has no bearing on the fact that the duties must be done by someone or we are in breach of our bylaws.

The question I am asking is: If a member is present only to volunteer to fulfill a work task required by our bylaws, should the member have to pay dues and wear costuming? If that answer is Yes (as the president is saying it is), then it needs to be uniformly applied to all such positions. I am advocating that the answer should be No for all such positions, but as Cailen has pointed out - that brings up issues with insurance that would need to be addressed.

Inox - sorry you think this conversation is so simplistic it doesn't need to be discussed. Feel free to apply yourself to a conversation you feel is more worthy of your time and attention and allow us stupid folk to continue our overly difficult discussion sans insults. Perhaps the NC meetings would be shorter and more fun for you if you didn't spend the majority of your time telling people that they are idiots if they don't agree with you and presenting your opinions as facts that should be so clear to everyone that they don't really need to say much.

Fingers - thank you for both running the event yesterday and representing our country in Senate since no one else was available. You truly went above and beyond service to the game yesterday.
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-09

Kesyra I agree 100% fi we have rules they need to be uniformly followed...

I did not fight on sunday at all ...

I dropped my family at the Baltimore zoo then in black suit pants and dress shirt drove to the event.

I play a cavileer so I always make sure I meet the costume and armor requirement for my class...

When I arrived I put on a tunic completly covering my dress shirt... put on a breast plate ... put on a yellow armband ... put on a white CLOTH belt (for my class) and checked in ... after I dropped off the castle that Fingers needed for the event and weapons that people had ordered I returned to my car and in under 1 minute had my 4 items that made my costume legal off and was on my way to spend the day with my family...

Those are the rules - that is how they have been stated - and it was not hard to follow.

Please all of us lets respect the decision that was made about what you have to do to be on site at an event and apply it universally because that is what is right and fair.

Kesyra is correct and I support her 100% on having a issue when rules (any rules) are applied not universally. This goes for every single aspect of our game from what is a legal costume to what is a legal weapon .... from what you have to do when on site to what State rules are in effect at campouts...

When a person any person gets unequal treatment in any of these reguards it fosters resentment that is not healthy to our organization and is unfair to the other participants.

In service,
Cailen
++ Respect those above your station and train others under you to surpass your achievements - while you treat others with the respect you expect to receive in return! ++

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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by President » 2012-04-09

The fact is the Senate functions at an event at a site that almost universally has to be covered by insurance. Pay the dues. Because you also get credits when you pay the dues, you have to be in costume.

When the EB and NC meet at events, they pay the dues and are in costume.

John Machate

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Lord Cailen Sendor
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-09

John I think Kesyra's main concern is that she witnesses people that are suposed to run the game or in positions of power within our structure not always having the same rules others in the game have to follow applied fairly and evenly to them.

Can you please as president make sure (by asking all others in positions serving the game) that the rules are applied evenly to all members reguardless of thier position. If that is done I feel as if alot of this discussion will become moot.

Thank you.
++ Respect those above your station and train others under you to surpass your achievements - while you treat others with the respect you expect to receive in return! ++

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Lord Dubh
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Re: Increased Dues Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-09

I do not see the two thing being related and frankly I find the entire argument petty.
Sir Bendore Dubh of Dai-Dagan, CR, KR, OG, OR, CB, CC
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