Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

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fingers630
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Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-09

This was brought up at Senate today and several people loudly proclaimed that this was in fact illegal due to the fact the rulebook clearly states that you CANNOT swing any weapon from the shield hand, and that you cannot swing a shield in the manner that presents an edge of the shield to your opponent.

I cannot find either of these "rules" in the online Jan 2012 rulebook. can you please show me which area they are located.

The only reference to shield edges not being used, is in the "shield bash" section, which simply states that you cannot shield bash someone with the edge of your shield, you must "push" the shield forward.

That being said, i see nothing wrong with stabbing someone with a dagger held in your shield hand, or spear, long enough to protrude past the edge of the shield, so you are not striking someone with the edge of your shield. Which is what I believe the presidential ruling was.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

I don't think a weapon being held in a shield hand should be illegal, but attacking with one? That's dangerous territory since you can easily get bashed by a shield's edge. Bucklers are different since they are typically small, arm-strapped and generally do not protrude past the wrist.

On the other hand, maybe these rules should be looked at more closely. I could see weapons like the shielded spear becoming used.

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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-04-09

The thing is that it is not inherently unsafe. If someone was going around and edging people, it would be a problem with a player, not the combo they were using.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

It's about risk prevention as well, Tyriel. By the same logic, I could say it's safe for someone to fight with razor-blades and spikes stuck to his armor, just as long he wasn't out grappling people.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-04-09

Its things like that that make the game ridiculous. If we had to make rules for anyone who wanted to do dumb * like that no one would be able to read the rulebook becasue it would be huge. If you have no common sense you should probably not play this game.

If a player is using this combo, which is safe, they are not doing anything wrong. If our game was all about risk prevention we wouldn't be fighting and you wouldn't have to sign a waiver. We would all be playing rock paper scizzors on the field in our poofy clothes.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

All I'm saying is we shouldn't rely on people's common sense to prevent injuries. Common sense is less common than you might think. We have to think about safety and liability to the game, a bad injury CAN cripple the game financially and lose us venues.

Just because one player can play safely using a risky move doesn't mean that something he's doing isn't unsafe for others to try. Hell, a bomb squad member can safely disarm explosives because of his training and skill, but a regular cop will just blow everyone up. Darkon doesn't train players to fight safely. One player's skill doesn't make a tactic safe. It either is always safe, or never safe.

And with that, I'll let you guys duke this out. I'm sure it'll have to go back to senate anyway.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-04-09

This tactic was used for years and had no issues. It faded out and has come back recently with a few players using it. What people do not get is that you can do something that is safe unsafely. For example, I could kick your shield and that would be cool, or I could kick your shield into your chin and that is unsafe and would suck.

Players can take safe things and make them unsafe, this is one of those things.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:For example, I could kick your shield and that would be cool, or I could kick your shield into your chin and that is unsafe and would suck.
Uh, dude? You realize that example just supports my argument, right? That's what we call an Illegal Shield Kick. When something is unsafe, we make rules preventing it. That's how we keep people from doing dangerous *.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-04-09

People have been holding spare weapons in their shield hand for years yes. But there's never been a plethora of fighters "attacking" with the weapon held in that shield hand. Look at the size of the shields most people use. How many of those fighters are going to hold a stabbing weapon in their shield hand that extends far enough to exhibit an inability to shield edge their opponent? It doesn't take a whole lot to turn that stab into an edge.

Safety is the chief concern that we should look to. Just because a small percentage of fighters can perform the technique safely most of the time, completely neglects to bring up the other 95% of people on the field who are going to screw up and hurt someone.

Players can take safe things and make them unsafe, but if a thing is unsafe to begin with, then we shouldn't be giving the masses the opportunity to goof up.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

Also, I want to add: If you make shields safe for edge-hits, I'm totally cool with this tactic being allowed. Right now, with 1 1/2 inch minimum edge still allowed, I just don't think it's safe. It's because Darkon's tech isn't the same as many other games that allow shield edge strikes.

If you really want this someone should write up a proposal to change the shield edge minimum to make it safe for "edge strikes" and include this with it.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Inox » 2012-04-09

Right now, just to be clear, this tactic is allowed. There is nothing prohibiting it.

If someone is doing it in an unsafe way...well, that's why we have Elders and Nobles on the field.

We don't need a damned rule for every little thing. Use some common sense.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-09

Exactly. I have been using a staff in my shield hand for my mage for 15 years, stabbing with the thrusting tip of it, and have had 0 complaints. I have absolutely no problem with people using common sense in this instance, as with a lot of other things (like NOT grappling someone down a hill in the fort battle yesterday) and only brought this issue up as it was mentioned in Senate yesterday, and several VETS claimed it was clearly illegal, and said so in the rulebook.

I am just letting you know that unless you have a different rulebook than what is published online, the tactic is completely legal.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-04-09

The only thing remaining in the rule book(After searching it for an hour last night) that might have made mention to this is the fact that using a buckler strapped to your arm leaves your shield hand "open".
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-04-09

Which is why the tactic was brought before the NC and discussed. It was deemed safe by the NC, but as I did not have a rulebook in front of me at the time, I did not push the issue. I look at this the same as greatsword shots to the shoulder. It has a higher risk associated with it, but the shot itself is not unsafe. We can and have in the past told players they could not use greatswords because they constantly hit people in the head when attempting that shot.

So, unless someone can produce the section of the rulebook that specifically forbids this tactic the NC ruling stands and it is a valid tactic. Optionally, if someone is truly against it make a proposal in Senate.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Braxus » 2012-04-09

i had a long dagger that i would stab. i use a tourney shield
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Kobalos » 2012-04-09

Duke Andrick wrote:So, unless someone can produce the section of the rulebook that specifically forbids this tactic the NC ruling stands and it is a valid tactic. Optionally, if someone is truly against it make a proposal in Senate.


QFT. The NC ruled it was safe--if you want to outlaw it, pursue that in Senate.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-09

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-09

***We don't need a damned rule for every little thing. Use some common sense.***

And we need the lawyer to remind us of this!
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-04-09

"Shields that fasten to the arm, leaving the hand free, are called bucklers."

Seems to me that bucklers were intended to let you hold an item in your hand, but shields were not. Seems like a gray-area violation if you think you can hold and use a weapon in your shield hand.

Why would bucklers even exist in the game if you could simply use a shield and two-handed weapon?

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-09

Greetings all ... Believe me this subject was fully reviewed on all merits and cons by the NC there were many discussions about this tactic that delved into what the specifics are below is just one of many messages we had before discussing it in our meeting (This is a message I sent to the NC board reguarding what players specifically might have faults with by how the rules are written).....

I will address it on several fronts and possibly illustrate why people have issues.

1. "There may be no sheild spikes or other "hard" decorations on the front or edge of a sheild"

The NC years ago supported this wording and its not allowing a 1/2" plywood to become a weapon even though padded implies that it should not be used in a way (outside of using the flat) that could be implied as a weapon in any way.

2. "Shields that fasten to the arm, leaving the hand free, are called bucklers. Bucklers must be between 12" and 18" in size and may be made from 1/4" thick wood."

This statement implies that only bucklers can be used with a weapon because the hand is free - the result by default is that only something made of wood under 18" can be used "swung" with a weapon as a weapon combo. This does not state though that only bucklers can be involved when swinging a weapon. But it does imply as such.

3. "When fighting, weapons should be swung with the entire arm to avoid arguments."

That would mean with no uncertin terms that if a weapon was allowed in the hand holding a full size sheild for that weapon to count when swung by default you would be swinging your sheild with your entire arm to make the strike from the weapon in it to count.

4. "Players may never strike an opponent with the edge of the sheild."

To me this means do not use your sheild in a way that the edge can strike the opposing player with something other then the flat - if you are swinging a sword with a full edge of a sheild connected to the swing while fully swinging with your arm then you are swinging the edge toward your opponent - skill will prevent this edge from making contact in most instances BUT when you are in middle of the mele that means you have a sheild edge 2' to 3' (depending on your sheild size) away from your weapon "swinging" in a arch along the path the weapon is taking. Understandably this can be controlled when facing 1-2 opponents but in a mass mele that edge is extended out and possibly not visible to you what or who you might hit with it.

5. So although it does not state in the rules that you can not use a weapon in the hand holding a non buckler sheild it is implied....

For years I have thought of using a short spear in my sheild hand and have even practiced with it with good results but I have not chosen personally to fight this way on the feild because of the issues you are encountering with people questioning the validity of that technique. The spear use is less evasive then a swung blade because the edge would be only moving in the direction of the person that has my attention on atm and would not impact anyone as a secondary casulity that is out of my direct line of site.

If it is allowable then I will look into playing more with it but in my heart I believe it to be a huge grey area and a exploit of our uncodified rule set atm. I would love to do it but as I said to me it feels like it is against the rules even though I can not determine the exact wording why it is so. Because there has been no injuries associated in its limited feild use to date that does not mean it is either safe or unsafe.

One additional thing to consider is anvilling. Clearly because you are holding the sheild properly you are not anvilling! BUT some people may consider that when you use your weapon in the sheild hand as a weapon and it becomes the primary use of that arm that then your holding your sheild passevly would count similar to having a sheild strapped to your back. "Even passive anvilling is not allowed, such as a sheithed sword being struck, or a sheild strapped to the back, or a held weapon being hit into the arm."

So in essance there are some real grey areas here.

Ask yourself this.

a. does any other player do it?

b. if so who does and with what weapons?

c. if you are the only player that does it currently then it might be a good idea to keep the peace to ask the counsul to treat it like a new weapon that needs NC approval... there is a history of such occuring (like using 2 spears at one time)

I am torn on it personally ... players with less skill can really hurt another player ESPECALLY with the harder sheild tech we use these days... but it is and does provide the chance to use a skill that can be devasting and requires skill that few can master.

-----------------------------------------------------------
My 3 questions were addressed in the meeting to my satasafaction there has been sufficient evidence over the last 26 years that it has been used by many players in the game with various success and with 0 history of causing injuries...

You ask what is the difference is between bucklers and a sheild... the answer is that you can use two bucklers... but only one sheild...

We reviewed the ruling specifically on safety merits and found that we could not cite a instance or a player currently using this tactic in a unsafe manner therefore our ruling was that it is currently safe.

BUT if a player comes out and starts fighting in a unsafe manner with this combination it will be readdressed at that point and they will be required to stop doing it. In the past certain players have been not allowed to use certain techniques because of thier inability to do it safely.

Hopefully this enlightens everyone on the merits and full discloser reguarding the NC reviewing this tactic.

P.s. If for non safety reasons you think this tactic should not be allowed feel free to propose a senate rule change.

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Cailen
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-09

I agree that swinging a sword while holding a tower shield is pretty suspect, however using a buckler (that is not strapped to my arm completely) witha Qstaff and a Short Spear (not at the same time) is a tactic I, and others have used for 15+ years.

Like I said, I have never had a complaint about it. I have seen people with 8ft spears use short shields/bucklers, again, ones that are not strapped to their arm but held via a small handle (or large hands) and have never heard an issue about that either.

I have used a long dagger in a hand that held a shield, but that was long ago, and the dagger stuck out 3-4 inches past the well padded shield (no one will ever accuse me of having a hard shield).

If these practices are in fact unallowable, please mark it so in the rulebook.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

I don't know what to say about this. It's already passed? Seems like something iffy that's never been mentioned that squeaked by due to low Easter attendance. Well, I hope it was specifically Red. It is Red Only I hope? I don't want to see people using this in conjunction with huge swung weapons. I'm not eating that edge sandwich.

We should really look into increasing the edge minimum of shields to make this safer.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-09

Guys ... the NC voted that as it is currently written and used by various players in the game you are allowed to use 1 sheild and have a weapon in the hand using the sheild... you still must if swinging that weapon be careful not to edge your opponent with your sheild and swing hard enough to have the weapon in the sheild hand count...

As always use common sense... if you show up with a tower sheild and a dagger that only extends a inch past the sheild edge and expect to use the dagger sheild combo to stab you will be approached and told NOT to do this ...

If you want to disallow a weapon in the hand holding a normal sized sheild then at this point you MUST make a senate proposal to change it. Right now this technique is allowed by the NC within reason... and again if you start doing it in a unsafe manner you will be asked to stop being a idiot.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-09

As President, I felt this was a safety issue and opted to go with the NC decision and they deemed it safe.

If you do not like it, you should have a proposal against it in the Senate.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-09

even with low easter attendance, there were a TON of people at senate. i do not recall if this was voted on, it was one of the last things Andrick talked about. I believe it was tabled as people came forward claiming it was illegal. My whole point in this post was to simply point out, that they in fact, were wrong. There was nothing in the rulebook stating what they stated at Senate.

Andrick can fill in if it was voted on or tabled til next Senate meeting however it is my understanding that the President with the NC blessing or vice versa has stated that for the time being, it is ok using common sense to attack with a weapon in a shield arm/hand.
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