Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

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Lord Valfryn
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-09

As a practitioner of the style in question, I approached the president for his spot ruling the first time a player brought up concerns to safety. After this, I then added this to the NC agenda to hear thoughts and concerns and to verify that my use of said weapons are deemed safe and legitimate.

There was no vote in senate, as there was no need for one. If a player wishes to propose a rule change, then there will be a vote. What Duke Andrick was doing was relaying the presidential clarifications, if I am not mistaken.

I heard Bard's arguments, and realizing that they were unfounded: left senate to stab people with my shield sword. These sorts of things work themselves out. Just another Sunday. Considering I have done everything I can to ensure that I am playing proper cricket, I will just go about stabbing people like normal until presented with a passing proposal stopping me from doing so. I did use a tower shield again for the first time in almost 2 years, I'm sure my guys would love to see me using it full time again, haha.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

I think this needs to be scrutinized heavily if it's going to be allowed. Honestly, I think it could be pretty beneficial if we make it safer for everyone. I can see it working if we adjust our shield specs and codify the rules surrounding it. It's one of those things like Shield Kicking, it can be extremely dangerous to the player if there isn't a set of specific rules in place regarding how to do it without hurting someone. Leaving it at "This is allowed, use common sense" is just going to result in players hurting each other, I guarantee it. I realize some of you hate the idea of adding more rules, but in this case you're going to need them.

I know some of you are saying to me specifically, "then you go make the proposal." However, as I've said before, I'm still relatively new. I'm not experienced enough in this game to be making the rules. I do however care about the game, the players, and the safety of those players, and I will make my opinions known until the day I am told by the president that I can't. (And believe me, that will be my last day in Darkon.)

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-04-09

Alzarahn I respect your opinion but as you have seen it is legal currently. There is no rule stating that it is illegal and the safety counsul for the organization has made a ruling and the president has made a ruling which seals the deal...

If anyone wishes to make it illegal then it at this point has to be done threw senate that is how our system of checks and balences work. With EVERY weapon and weapon combo common sense needs to be applied I am sorry that it may seem that in only this instance it needs to be applied. players HAVE BEEN USING THIS MANNER OF FIGHTING FOR OVER 20 YEARS... longer then some of our membership has been alive. To our knowledge no player has been hurt by this use of weapon combo. We have scrutinized it heavily and it is allowed. We do make it safer for everyone. Our sheild specs are some of the heavest out there ... unlike other groups that allow foam with no wood core or groups that allow plastic snow dishes to be used as core we pay for the defense that a sheild gives in its weight. The other groups use sheilds that can be 1/4 or more of the weight of the ones we use but they are destroyed very easily which makes up for how little energy it takes to cart them around all day. Our fights take longer because of these dynamics... our armor takes more hits and can stop arrows... our sheilds weigh more ... we allow grappling ... ect

This is Darkon it is full contact and to get protection it will slow you down and take your energy just to feild in it before you ever swing. (unless you have magic hide or you are a mage) Sometimes it is not about adding rules but playing within the rules as written ... when there is a question you ask if it is ok to the person or people you are supposed to and they look over all the facts and make a decision... that is what has been done in this situation.

No one is going to tell you stop saying your opinions but in some cases it is a good idea to rely on the wisdom of those who the game sets forth to make the decisions that need to be made. We are not perfect nor do we all agree but we do all have the safety of our members and the interest of our organization at heart. That you can believe in.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-09

Deleted...Cailen said it better than me.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

Well said Calien. I'm going to hope for the best in this case, but I still have reservations about this. Hopefully a more experience player/legislator (than myself) will codify the rules for this.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by jayjay » 2012-04-09

Alzarahn wrote: It's because Darkon's tech isn't the same as many other games that allow shield edge strikes.



amt doesn't allow shield edging or bashing (with the face) people have been fighting with down stabbies in their shield hand there for all 15 years i've been doing it, and i've never seen someone hurt by it. personally, i think this is about someone that got beat by something they don't know how to defend and are trying to say it is unsafe.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

jayjay wrote:
Alzarahn wrote: It's because Darkon's tech isn't the same as many other games that allow shield edge strikes.



amt doesn't allow shield edging or bashing (with the face) people have been fighting with down stabbies in their shield hand there for all 15 years i've been doing it, and i've never seen someone hurt by it. personally, i think this is about someone that got beat by something they don't know how to defend and are trying to say it is unsafe.


Assumptions make an ass out of umptions.

I've never personally encountered this fighting style on the field, so no, it's not about my ability to counter it. I'm worried that I'll see someone come in with a monster full-contact swing with a short weapon and big shield with the 1 1/2 minimum edge and injure any one of my friends. It's the fact that Darkon shields are so heavy that I think makes this more dangerous in our game, it's a lot of inertial mass flying around.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-04-09

There is nothing to vote on. There is not rule against it, but there was a concern about safety. It was addressed.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-04-09

Honestly Alzarahn, you need to quit while you are ahead. Several nobles have told you that it is safe, including ones that are in your country. Beating this dead horse will not get you any points anywhere. If you want something done about it that has already been done and went through the proper channels, than do it. Stop wasting everyones time. All your doing at this point is frustrating people.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-04-09

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:Honestly Alzarahn, you need to quit while you are ahead. Several nobles have told you that it is safe, including ones that are in your country. Beating this dead horse will not get you any points anywhere. If you want something done about it that has already been done and went through the proper channels, than do it. Stop wasting everyones time. All your doing at this point is frustrating people.


I'm honestly not personally satisfied that this is safe; I realize that my personal feelings are not important in regards to the ruling, they make no difference. The rules currently say nothing about this, and the NC has ruled that it's safe to fight with the weapon in your shield hand. That's where this stands. There's nothing else codifying this, no rules to say how to do it safely, no required newbie speech training for it.

You might not realize this, but I'm not out for brownie points, and what you call 'beating a dead horse' I call 'expressing concern for my fellow Darkonians'. I'm not looking to go create proposals or sit in senate to vote on this, I'm way to new to be trying to make the rules vets have to play by. That said, I don't think expressing my concern has ever been a waste of time, and if you find that frustrating it sounds like a personal problem and I'm sorry.

I'm afraid. That's the honest truth. I'm afraid to see Darkonians I care about get severely injured because "common sense" should have been enough. What happens the first time some inexperienced 'newb' tries to make a shoulder strike with a 30" shield in close-quarters mash, and the heavy shield edge comes down full force on someone's head or neck? Oops? Sure you can take that ability from him after, but the damage is done and somebody is possibly crippled or worse. This could easily be prevented with just a paragraph of rules on what is and isn't a legal move with this style, or some training in the newbie speech, or something, anything to address these concerns. Is that too much to ask?

Too many of you I know blow this concern off, like it's okay to not worry about it because the game is violent and full-contact, you get what you pay for? Is it really worth having a shorter rule book and a new fighting tactic for the skilled player at the risk of everyone's safety? That's psychotic.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-09

. Haha, we have finally narrowed it down,the drop in attendance wasnt because it was a holiday, or the 5$dues.... I killed them all at burtonsville and buried their bodies in the trails behind the basketball courts. That's how I know for a fact that you haven't encountered "the widow-maker".

But in all seriousness: If you are honestly scared, you can beat on me with my load out, to test your fears. I'm certain you will fail to injure me (assuming you aren't using illegal tactics). In fact... you can stab me in my unarmored chest with my shield edge all you want, because the truth is: my shield is about as soft as and has more surface area than my sword. That means it hits with less PSI at point of contact.... a win for the average player who enjoys their kidneys.

Now that I think about it, if you're ok with me tackling you, or bowling over you with my shield in metal armor (which even the roundest of edges can still manage to split skin on impact), this leads me to believe you are experiencing an irrational fear. I have been responding here out of my willingness to be a good sport, but I can see that this has gotten nonsensical, and will adjourn ..
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-04-09

TBH its the sword in Murph's right hand that stabs my face. The one with the shield is O-tay!
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-09

damned stabby swords...
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Taggart MacBannion » 2012-04-09

Alzarahn wrote:
Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:Honestly Alzarahn, you need to quit while you are ahead. Several nobles have told you that it is safe, including ones that are in your country. Beating this dead horse will not get you any points anywhere. If you want something done about it that has already been done and went through the proper channels, than do it. Stop wasting everyones time. All your doing at this point is frustrating people.


I'm honestly not personally satisfied that this is safe; I realize that my personal feelings are not important in regards to the ruling, they make no difference. The rules currently say nothing about this, and the NC has ruled that it's safe to fight with the weapon in your shield hand. That's where this stands. There's nothing else codifying this, no rules to say how to do it safely, no required newbie speech training for it.

You might not realize this, but I'm not out for brownie points, and what you call 'beating a dead horse' I call 'expressing concern for my fellow Darkonians'. I'm not looking to go create proposals or sit in senate to vote on this, I'm way to new to be trying to make the rules vets have to play by. That said, I don't think expressing my concern has ever been a waste of time, and if you find that frustrating it sounds like a personal problem and I'm sorry.

I'm afraid. That's the honest truth. I'm afraid to see Darkonians I care about get severely injured because "common sense" should have been enough. What happens the first time some inexperienced 'newb' tries to make a shoulder strike with a 30" shield in close-quarters mash, and the heavy shield edge comes down full force on someone's head or neck? Oops? Sure you can take that ability from him after, but the damage is done and somebody is possibly crippled or worse. This could easily be prevented with just a paragraph of rules on what is and isn't a legal move with this style, or some training in the newbie speech, or something, anything to address these concerns. Is that too much to ask?

Too many of you I know blow this concern off, like it's okay to not worry about it because the game is violent and full-contact, you get what you pay for? Is it really worth having a shorter rule book and a new fighting tactic for the skilled player at the risk of everyone's safety? That's psychotic.


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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Fiyero » 2012-04-10

Sir Caetrel wrote:TBH its the sword in Murph's right hand that stabs my face. The one with the shield is O-tay!


And getting stabbed by Valfryn in the face isn't so bad. :mrgreen:
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by jayjay » 2012-04-10

fingers630 wrote:damned stabby swords...


learn to block ;)

or get skinnier. it is a proven fact that skinny people cannot be hit.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-04-10

Fingers are and will be fat fo lives!
Live for the slaughter
GLORIUS death

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-04-10

It is really tough to stab Vox. Is it because he is slender? I am going to start bringing him pastries to practice and events.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by fingers630 » 2012-04-10

Warlordcort wrote:Fingers are and will be fat fo lives!


Which makes it even more embarassing for those of you pwned by an old fat guy :lol:
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-04-19

Alzarahn wrote:I'm honestly not personally satisfied that this is safe; I realize that my personal feelings are not important in regards to the ruling, they make no difference. The rules currently say nothing about this, and the NC has ruled that it's safe to fight with the weapon in your shield hand. That's where this stands. There's nothing else codifying this, no rules to say how to do it safely, no required newbie speech training for it.

You might not realize this, but I'm not out for brownie points, and what you call 'beating a dead horse' I call 'expressing concern for my fellow Darkonians'. I'm not looking to go create proposals or sit in senate to vote on this, I'm way to new to be trying to make the rules vets have to play by. That said, I don't think expressing my concern has ever been a waste of time, and if you find that frustrating it sounds like a personal problem and I'm sorry.

I'm afraid. That's the honest truth. I'm afraid to see Darkonians I care about get severely injured because "common sense" should have been enough. What happens the first time some inexperienced 'newb' tries to make a shoulder strike with a 30" shield in close-quarters mash, and the heavy shield edge comes down full force on someone's head or neck? Oops? Sure you can take that ability from him after, but the damage is done and somebody is possibly crippled or worse. This could easily be prevented with just a paragraph of rules on what is and isn't a legal move with this style, or some training in the newbie speech, or something, anything to address these concerns. Is that too much to ask?

Too many of you I know blow this concern off, like it's okay to not worry about it because the game is violent and full-contact, you get what you pay for? Is it really worth having a shorter rule book and a new fighting tactic for the skilled player at the risk of everyone's safety? That's psychotic.


Try the shot out yourself. That will probably make you happier. It's actually very difficult to make it dangerous.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Inox » 2012-04-19

Alzarahn wrote:I'm afraid. That's the honest truth. I'm afraid to see Darkonians I care about get severely injured because "common sense" should have been enough. What happens the first time some inexperienced 'newb' tries to make a shoulder strike with a 30" shield in close-quarters mash, and the heavy shield edge comes down full force on someone's head or neck? Oops?


Your fear is misplaced, and your timidity is off-putting.

In other games, strikes with the edge of the shield to an opponent's body are allowed. People are often hit in the head accidentally. No one goes home crippled from being edged with a shield.

Of course, we're not even talking about that. You're worried about the mere chance of being edged, when a valid weapon strike is occurring.

Fight more, worry less.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-04-25

Alzarahn wrote:I've never personally encountered this fighting style on the field

Alzarahn wrote:I'm honestly not personally satisfied that this is safe; I realize that my personal feelings are not important in regards to the ruling, they make no difference.


Dude, shut up.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-12-05

I am slightly late to the thread, however I felt this was necessary:

1.
There is nothing to vote on. There is not rule against it, but there was a concern about safety. It was addressed.


-Yes there is, if this is to be allowed there needs to be a proposal to change the rule. I searched and didn't see one, I might have missed it.

2.
Alzarahn I respect your opinion but as you have seen it is legal currently. There is no rule stating that it is illegal and the safety counsul for the organization has made a ruling and the president has made a ruling which seals the deal...


- I understand it was ruled safe, but we missed the part in the rulebook that says no.

3.
Stop wasting everyones time. All your doing at this point is frustrating people.


- Why is a concern about being bludgeoned with a heavy wood cored object in the face frustrating? I understand that not many people see the possibility of danger in this, however his concerns could easily have been addressed in a different way. I am not about to declare someone a ninny because they have a safety concern.

4.
Now that I think about it, if you're ok with me tackling you...


- If he is not wearing plate, he doesn't need to worry about being tackled by you unless he initiates the grapple. This is a self inflicted risk that he would be able to avoid without worry.

5.
Try the shot out yourself. That will probably make you happier. It's actually very difficult to make it dangerous.


- That I agree with. Lets test it out and see how dangerous it can be before letting every new guy attempt to imitate the better fighters on the field and smack someone in the nose.

6.
In other games, strikes with the edge of the shield to an opponent's body are allowed.


- In other games shields construction is not mandated to have a plywood core.

7.
Dude, shut up.


- ...This doesn't seem like a good way to address someones concerns.

Non‐Weapon Tactics
‘Shield bashing’ is permitted, but it must be performed by pushing or bashing into an opponent with the flat of the shield.
Participants may never strike an opponent with the edge of a shield. You may only shield bash or tackle an opponent from the front.
It is also permissible for a participant to push kick the flat of an opponent’s shield from the front with one foot, as long as the other
foot is planted on the ground. Participants may not perform a shield kick or shield bash to an opponent on his knees.

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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2013-12-05

Please do not be a forum Cleric, This conversation is from a year and a half ago... You are very late to a resolved issue.
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Re: Fighting with weapons in your shield hand

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-12-05

His post seems to be about a different issue, anyway.

It is quoting text about shield edging. Unless he is trying to say that anytime you are fighting with a weapon in your shield hand you COULD hit somebody with a shield edge, and thus you can't fight with weapons in your shield hand, then I'm not sure what is even going on here.

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