Armor and Lost limbs

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Artex
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Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2012-12-30

SO I was asked this the other day and I wasn't sure how to answer it.

If I hit someone in the unarmored part of a limb and injure the limb, and later hit that limbs area that is covered by armor do they die?

In the past I have always called myself dead on this, butI find myself questioning that because the rules state that further damage to the limb (with a white weapon) results in am mortal wound, but also armor covers what it covers.

Can anyone give me an official call on this?

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2012-12-30

If a light wound is caused to a limb on your body the armor provides no protection, thus another hit to that location (of a non-yellow weapon) would cause a mortal wound.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2012-12-30

We should probably have that in the rules than. Thats how I've played it, but the rules don't really cover that flat out.

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Kobalos » 2012-12-30

You're absolutely right. Write something up & I propose it! I :)
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Inox » 2012-12-30

p. 20: If a limb is lightly wounded, any armor on that limb is considered exhausted until the wound is healed and the armor repaired.

The problem is not what's covered, usually, it's that the rulebook is organized like a shipwreck. We really need to make the important things more visible, organize it logically, etc.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2012-12-30

Yeah I looked that up Inox and It makes no sense where it's placed. But thank you.

Seriously I think I'm just going to reorganize the damn rule book and post it here as "the Fan Made Players Edition"

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-12-30

Artex wrote:Yeah I looked that up Inox and It makes no sense where it's placed. But thank you.

Seriously I think I'm just going to reorganize the * rule book and post it here as "the Fan Made Players Edition"

I believe Bendore is working on that ... with a professional editor, even.

It will be very helpful when it is completed.

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-12-30

Where should it go?? Moving things around is easy and is something that is ongoing. Sadly, the editor that was looking on it has a big book project until April but she said she will look over the organization of the rulebook in time for the July 2013 publication.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Inox » 2012-12-30

Not to deuce on any of your efforts thus far, but I believe that this rulebook reorg needs to be done by a small number of veteran players. I don't think an outsider is going to realize what's most important, where common areas of confusion are, which concepts lead naturally into others, etc.

Basically, she can make it more readable, but she can't necessarily make it more coherent or instructive. That's a very important distinction.

Most people don't know this, but my undergraduate career was in one of the best writing programs in the country at JHU. If Andrick would like to form a reorg committee for 2013, I'm happy to volunteer to be involved with it.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-12-31

I as well would like to be on this committee, if its put together.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2012-12-31

Just to play devils advocate here. Maybe an outsider is what we need. Someone who will look at the rules and help put them in an order that other outsiders (new players) can easily reference. Darkon is very insular (I actually like that) but I'm not apposed to getting help from outside the game.

However having a review committee of vet players is not a bad idea either.

Or we could just scrap this whole darkon thing and rewrite the rules since here lately it seems the newer players in the game are extremely vocal about "balancing the classes" Lets just go start a mad max style game with foam weapons jeans and leather jackets and be done with it [/sarcasm]

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-12-31

Kevin,

A professional is capable of taking this rulebook and structuring it without having a full understanding of the material. I know this because I have seen it done with medical books and a paintball book. All that is needed is a subject matter expert to help answer questions. After all, they are professionals and get paid to do this sort of thing on a regular basis.

Allowing a professional to identify a rulebook structure that moved like to like without changing the rules themselves is what is needed, not yet another rulebook committee. The previous rulebook committee's * things up, had stealth changes to the rules and generally turned out poorly. Though the Senate is more to blame for that...they didn't do a proper review.

And I need to be clear on one more thing, I would not be involved in any committee on which you are a participant.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Inox » 2012-12-31

Lord Dubh wrote:Kevin,

A professional is capable of taking this rulebook and structuring it without having a full understanding of the material. I know this because I have seen it done with medical books and a paintball book. All that is needed is a subject matter expert to help answer questions. After all, they are professionals and get paid to do this sort of thing on a regular basis.


As I said, it's not just about making it readable. It's about being able to determine what, in terms of the gameplay, needs to be emphasized, and what can be safely presented later. An outsider editor, no matter how much you want to bandy the term "professional" about, cannot. Also, I am a professional...in multiple fields. :D

Lord Dubh wrote:Allowing a professional to identify a rulebook structure that moved like to like without changing the rules themselves is what is needed, not yet another rulebook committee. The previous rulebook committee's * things up, had stealth changes to the rules and generally turned out poorly. Though the Senate is more to blame for that...they didn't do a proper review.


I wasn't really around for much of that, but I agree 100% that we do not need changes. The rules need to stay as they are during this process. Things need to be reorganized and presented for clarity and understanding. Also, I believe strongly that is needs to be an OPEN process, where the game knows exactly who is doing what, they get regular updates to review and vote on in Senate, etc.


Lord Dubh wrote:And I need to be clear on one more thing, I would not be involved in any committee on which you are a participant.


Well, at least you are being upfront now about it.

For the record, though, I'll work with anyone, because I am ultimately concerned about serving the game.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by TitusV » 2012-12-31

I kind of like the idea if an outside editor. Not trying to belittle anyone's professional skills or anything. Sometimes it's all about perspective. When a person is close to a body of work it's easy to overlook things and the individual has a bias no matter how hard they try. I'm a math guy so it's hard to explain so I will give an example.

In the design and engineering field in which I work, the most comprehensive QA check you can have done is by a 3rd party. This 3rd party should be another professional in your field but should have very little contact with the project or project team. When it is time for them to check calculations or drawings they should be given all necessary references and background material. A well written calculation should be clear, transparent, and easy to follow. A good package of construction drawings should be the same. The purpose of this is that an outsider should be able to follow and build exactly what is on the drawings without interpretation. A new person coming to Darkon is going to have the same perspective. The rule book should be written with them in mind.

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Inox » 2013-01-01

TitusV wrote:I kind of like the idea if an outside editor. Not trying to belittle anyone's professional skills or anything. Sometimes it's all about perspective. When a person is close to a body of work it's easy to overlook things and the individual has a bias no matter how hard they try. I'm a math guy so it's hard to explain so I will give an example.


Thing is, an outside editor can say, "What would I need to know to play the game?", but wouldn't know which of the details is more important than another beyond that very basic notion. Information about gap shots, about counting your own hits, about armor being gone when a limb is wounded, etc. are minor details in the rules, but need to be highlighted well beyond what they are.

That's how this whole discussion started.

Also, there's no reason an editor can't work to BE the QA check. We edit it into some semblance of how we think it should go together, and then they put eyes on it. Besides, unless we're paying this person huge sums of money, I don't think they're going to rewrite everything for clarity on the sentence level on any sort of reasonable timetable.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2013-01-01

Can we have one conversation that doesn't turn into "I don't like you" around here?

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-01

I think an outside editor with a inside committee to advise may work best. i volunteer to help and dont even care if Inox is on the team, because even though he is funny looking, I respect him enough to think he would put the needs of the whole above himself.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Prince Andrick » 2013-01-02

Because the process has already been started, I am going to allow it to continue as is for the July 2013 rulebook edition. Once I have the completed revision from the editor with all changes highlighted, I will form a committee to review what has been done and suggest additional changes. If that happens before the July edition, great. If it doesn't then the current format will remain for July and the changes will be made for the end of the year addition.

That said, please be constructive and answer questions when asked regarding where you think info should go (like the question asked above). That way, when the editor is finished most if not all of the work will already be done.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2013-01-03

It should be right under the description of the hit system. Not in the armor section.

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-01-03

Artex the reason it is in the armor section is because it is only a rule that comes into play when armor is involved - specifically how armor itself is counted when it is on a injured limb but has not been destroyed, or how gaps on armor work.

With the new rulebook rewrite it can be addressed to see if it should stay where it is now but that is the reason it is in the section it is in atm.

Hope that helps,
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Inox » 2013-01-03

Also, keep in mind that KEY SENTENCES CAN APPEAR IN MORE THAN ONE PLACE.

There's no reason we can't have a little repetition for easily-missed and critical concepts.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2013-01-03

Oh i know but Andrick Asked for a suggestion for where it should go.

My reasoning is, to me anything that deals with hitting an unarmored area should be covered in the hit system. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Inox » 2013-01-03

I say: both sections. Let's do both.
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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Artex » 2013-01-03

That would cut down on confusion.

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Re: Armor and Lost limbs

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2013-01-04

Aren't we doing a strictly electronic rulebook now (that's what I've heard anyway)? Can't we have clickable links and references in there? If something is in section X.y.zz but is relevant elsewhere, call it out like this and have a link to X.y.zz:

"For more information on wounds to armored versus unarmored opponents, see section X.y.zz" I work in the software field and we write TONS of documentation that does this, even references other documents which in our case is not necessary. It cuts down on redundancy and size of the actual document.
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