Stance on Hay Bail Walls

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shroom2021
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Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-01-11

Seen it in Pennsic and in Dag, just wondering if Darkon has something preventing people from creating Hay Bail Walls instead of the strings we use now.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by jayjay » 2013-01-11

having used them at a few amtgard events i helped run, they are nice to use, but a pain in the ass to dispose of.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-11

gasoline and matches?
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Havoc » 2013-01-11

Hay bales can be donated to one of the many horse rescues in the area. Days end horse rescue http://www.defhr.org/ being one.

Biggest issue being cost and transport.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2013-01-11

One big issue is on page 27 of the rulebook:

"There must be an open area of no less than 3’ at the base of 90% of the fortification to allow for the use of the ‘Climb Walls’ Thief skill (see Chapter Five: Types of Characters)."

At most, 10% of your walls could be hay bails, the other 90% by the rules has to be something with a 3 foot hole at the bottom, aka rope walls.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Havoc » 2013-01-11

Hay bales can be stacked in a way to make passage by climb walls unaffected.

This is from a person who has used climb walls during 90% of campouts during the last five years.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Inox » 2013-01-11

Ogre Solaris wrote:One big issue is on page 27 of the rulebook:

"There must be an open area of no less than 3’ at the base of 90% of the fortification to allow for the use of the ‘Climb Walls’ Thief skill (see Chapter Five: Types of Characters)."




Besides what Havoc said, it's stupid for us to be bound by a rule we invented AFTER rope walls, simply to ACCOUNT for rope walls.

Make it so that Thieves can clamber over the bales. Done. Easy.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by jayjay » 2013-01-11

Havoc wrote:Hay bales can be donated to one of the many horse rescues in the area. Days end horse rescue http://www.defhr.org/ being one.

Biggest issue being cost and transport.


i used some at an event that it rained at. no one wanted wet hay. as to burning, depends on where you are.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-01-13

I agree with what Inox said, theres no reason you can't just climb over them. Also, in other games they use it to determine what you can swing over. No swinging over anything 3 bales high, and everything else is fair game. I would like to see hay bales used at bigger events.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2013-01-14

-Inox- wrote:
Besides what Havoc said, it's stupid for us to be bound by a rule we invented AFTER rope walls, simply to ACCOUNT for rope walls.

Make it so that Thieves can clamber over the bales. Done. Easy.

I'm not saying things can't be changed, just pointing out that physical walls interfere with the way the rules are written. While I am inclined to agree with you that actual walls would be better, it's not stupid to be bound by the rules. What is stupid is to complain about them and not take action to change them.

If you think we should have hay walls or some other physical wall (I think it would be awesome to see actual walls by the way), propose it to senate and get it changed. Climb walls will need to be addressed somehow, or removed or whatever happens to it. Disposal or storage will be another issue, and I'm sure that there are others (how does pass wall work for example). Might as well talk it out here first, but definitely worth proposing something to do away with the rope walls in my opinion.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Inox » 2013-01-15

I think my history in the game shows I am happy to make proposals when I think they are necessary.

I just think it's a little silly to say that a "big issue" with changing walls is how we wrote Climb Walls rules to deal with rope walls. We can't let these things slow us down & hamper fun. Change them? Absolutely...but it's not a "big issue" in solving the overall rope walls issue.

But, it does make one point very clear: Dumb abstractions beget dumb abstractions, which increase in complexity like bureaucracy. We started with one bit of make-believe goofiness in rope walls, and it went from there into a whole bunch of ridiculousness.

We used to use actual wood, and no one died.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2013-01-15

Oh, I know you make proposals when you want something changed. I was just taking issue with the statement that you didn't want to be bound by the rules. You're not above them anymore than anyone else.

I would try to get something together to propose myself because I think ropes are silly looking in the first place, but the next event is my last one, I'm moving away, so I could never bring this to senate in person. I will be at campouts though and really hope to start seeing actual walls at some point.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2013-01-15

Maybe it wouldn't have to be a requirement to have physical walls (leave rope as an option) but modify the abilities that would be affected by them to make them feasible at least. As written, the rules don't allow them unless there's a huge gap at the bottom.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Arion_Lightseeker » 2013-01-15

Instead of hay bales, why not have all of Darkon contribute cardboard boxes? You can find probably boxes of the comparable size, they can be decorated, even finishes with some kind of protectant too, and even easy to break down and transport.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-01-15

Arion_Lightseeker wrote:Instead of hay bales, why not have all of Darkon contribute cardboard boxes? You can find probably boxes of the comparable size, they can be decorated, even finishes with some kind of protectant too, and even easy to break down and transport.

Carboard boxes can't really be climbed. They tend to break when people step on them.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Kobalos » 2013-01-15

And they get wet.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Arion_Lightseeker » 2013-01-15

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:
Arion_Lightseeker wrote:Instead of hay bales, why not have all of Darkon contribute cardboard boxes? You can find probably boxes of the comparable size, they can be decorated, even finishes with some kind of protectant too, and even easy to break down and transport.

Carboard boxes can't really be climbed. They tend to break when people step on them.


Well, we really wouldn't expect people to actually climb on them for pete's sake. Darkon has rules for climbing walls for that.

First, you pick up the box to move it out of the way, waiting to "climb" over said wall. When said obstacle is moved, (maybe a count duration), wa-la, wall is climbed.

cardboard can get wet, but it dries better than hay, plus a spray sealent or duct tape wrapped around them may increase the lifespan.

Just thinking outside the box, and the hay bale.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Defalcone » 2013-01-16

Up here in Montana space isnt an issue for us, so we have used bale walls, made from straw because it is cheaper than hay. If you guys ever do decide to build one of these hit me up and and can fill you in on how to build it safely to allow people to crawl all over the thing without it coming down. We are working on a permanent structure up here, it will be made from straw and it will be stuccoed, to keep moisture out of the straw. When we start, we plan to record our progress so that other groups can build one as well.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by jayjay » 2013-01-17

Arion_Lightseeker wrote:Instead of hay bales, why not have all of Darkon contribute cardboard boxes? You can find probably boxes of the comparable size, they can be decorated, even finishes with some kind of protectant too, and even easy to break down and transport.


plastic sheeting and ropes would probably do this but be easier to work with. might cost more, but would be easier. i've seen it done at amt a few times and the one time i suffered through nero, this is how they did it. some paint on the sheets to make it look like stone castle walls and it looked not horrible.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-01-18

Defalcone wrote:Up here in Montana space isnt an issue for us, so we have used bale walls, made from straw because it is cheaper than hay. If you guys ever do decide to build one of these hit me up and and can fill you in on how to build it safely to allow people to crawl all over the thing without it coming down. We are working on a permanent structure up here, it will be made from straw and it will be stuccoed, to keep moisture out of the straw. When we start, we plan to record our progress so that other groups can build one as well.


Awesome.

There are 100+ year old straw bail cabins still in use. These structures can last a long time.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Cauthon » 2013-01-20

Ok first off hey bails can be staked in such a way that you can crawl under it and would be much saver than climbing over it just have the bottom row staggered leaving a space large enough for someone to crawl through it is not that hard to figure out just use your heads guys

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Xynn of Ched Nasad » 2013-01-21

but what about the plus size thief..... let us not forget toes the theif and/or thumbs the assassin that isnt of the 18" tall when on his/her belly. the hay bail idea would be size bias to people as fat as thom....
what about pass wall, we would have to change it to "hulk smash wall" if we started to use hay bails.

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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Kobalos » 2013-01-21

Personally, I'd like to see more realistic walls first, then figure out how to work spells & abilities around them.

Also, until someone actually trucks out some hay bales, this discussion is purely academic :)
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Inox » 2013-01-21

Ogre Solaris wrote:Oh, I know you make proposals when you want something changed. I was just taking issue with the statement that you didn't want to be bound by the rules. You're not above them anymore than anyone else.


I didn't mean I would ignore rules.

I meant that IN CHANGING RULES, we shouldn't let it be a concern that we have other, secondary and tertiary rules tied to a dumb mechanic. We should change those as needed.
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Re: Stance on Hay Bail Walls

Post by Inox » 2013-01-21

Xynn of Ched Nasad wrote:but what about the plus size thief..... let us not forget toes the theif and/or thumbs the assassin that isnt of the 18" tall when on his/her belly. the hay bail idea would be size bias to people as fat as thom....
what about pass wall, we would have to change it to "hulk smash wall" if we started to use hay bails.


We should just allow thieves to climb over them if they can.

It's a bit silly to overcomplicate something that can be easily physically accomplished in the course of gameplay. It's much like hiding/sneaking? Want to do it? Do it.

Also, we could just get rid of Passwall. It's one of those spells that creates more arguments than fun.
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