Prayer Touch question

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Prayer Touch question

Post by Snudge » 2013-01-28

Here is the prayer touch description. "This spell allows the Cleric to hold one spell for later use. To hold a spell, the Cleric must first cast Prayer Touch, and subsequently cast the spell to be held, utilizing the Energy Costs and Material Components for each. To use the stored spell, the Cleric simply needs to don the appropriate color gloves; gloves must be worn on both hands. The stored spell will be released upon the first thing the Cleric touches.
Held spells will penetrate all armor, but will not penetrate shields. Once the gloves are worn, the Cleric may not cast any other spells, use any weapons, or hold any object; they may touch themselves and move about normally without releasing the spell. If a Cleric is hit while Prayer Touch is active, the spell is not broken unless they are hit in the arms, mortally wounded, or killed.
A Cleric may have only one spell stored at any given time, but he may continue to cast other spells and fight normally until the gloves are worn. Only the casting Cleric can don the gloves and invoke the stored spell. Dispel Magic will nullify Prayer Touch and any stored spells."

A ruling was made yesterday by an elder on the field, which determines that any active contact with a hand whether the caster's choice on contact or not was sufficient to discharge prayer touch. The minutiae of things being moot at this point. I want to know what constitutes a hit to the arm of a cleric, the rule seems to have a large grey area indicating that the spell wouldn't be discharged unless both arms were hit "If a Cleric is hit while Prayer Touch is active, the spell is not broken unless they are hit in the arms" but also has the line "The stored spell will be released upon the first thing the Cleric touches."

So if the caster allows a single hand to be touched, but isn't the one that initiates the contact does that discharge the spell. Also does hit in this refer to a wounding strike, because the wording doesn't seem to indicate it does. Or is it simply anything that touches the cleric, because nothing indicates that it has to be his hands the cleric is touching or being touched by.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-01-28

The first thing you touch. If you touch a weapon, it counts. And if someone grabs your hand, it counts.

Of course, that is assuming that you are wearing the gloves at the time. You don't HAVE to put them on right away.

And because I imagine I know the rest of this, Last Rites says "a dead creature" in its description.

However, it should be noted that someone should change the information in the box for it, as it simply says "1 creature", whereas Animate Dead and Resurrection both say "1 DEAD creature". By simply reading the information in the box, Last Rites is a bit confusing - you have to read the actual spell description to get the whole picture.

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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-28

The stored spell will be released upon the first thing the Cleric touches


As the ruling elder, my decision was made on this direct wording from the spell description. It doesnt matter whom initiates any touching, the first thing you touch (ie another persons hand if it comes into contact with yours) discharges the spell.

Of course the EB is free to overrule.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Snudge » 2013-01-28

I just want a clarification on the entire gray area for the future. I'm fine with letting your on the field ruling stand.

Is there a safety ruling about touch spells and closed fists?
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-28

No problem at all. Just making sure it was known I was an unbiased elder ruling as I didnt want anyone thinking just cause Cailen was an Elidorian I was offering special treatment. Cause, * that guy =P.

As far as open or closed fist, I dont think there has ever been a ruling declaration either way. I mean, you cannot obviously punch someone, but I dont think that touching fists would be "punching" but I leave that to the Nobles.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Snudge » 2013-01-28

But why couldn't you punch someone if closed fists is a way to activate a touch spell?
There's nothing that indicates how a touch is to be delivered, nor does it say that touch spells aren't head legal.
I mean technically I could slap a dude in the face with prayer touch res if I wanted to given the way rules are written right now governing the spell
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Zodiac89 » 2013-01-28

While that may be true, I have a feeling no one wants to be slapped in the face or punched (anywhere) in order to be prayer touched.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-28

Snudge wrote:But why couldn't you punch someone if closed fists is a way to activate a touch spell?
There's nothing that indicates how a touch is to be delivered, nor does it say that touch spells aren't head legal.
I mean technically I could slap a dude in the face with prayer touch res if I wanted to given the way rules are written right now governing the spell



This is an interesting question. When I first started playing my mage, my common tactic was to burning hands someone on the top of their head, as often times they arent wearing helmets, especially at night.

I was told much later this was illegal, but as you said, i see nothing in the rules prohibting this from being legal.

You cannot slap or punch however, as according to the rules:

Participants may not punch, slap, or kick the body of another participant. A participant may not grab or pull on the costume, neck, or hair of another participant


So unless the NC rules it unsafe, I see nothing wrong with prayer touch rezzing someone by touching their head, or burning handsing someone by touching their head / neck in a legal fashion either.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-01-28

Burning hands says "THIS SPELL IS NOT HEAD LEGAL".

It's the last sentence.

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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-28

Hmm. I wonder how recently that was added. Like Giant Growth, which had a longer time limit and shorter range if I recall. WTF does it need to be 30ft anyway? Ugh, I hate this game =-P
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-01-28

I think the giant thing might've been part of inox's magic proposal the other year. There was a huge discussion about Growth before that...

As for burning hands? When I joined in 2005, the online rulebook from 2004 said it.

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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-28

Oh well. I can see WHY people may have had an issue with it, but back then it was accepted and no one had a problem. I guess it was like throat slitting, that happened, people took the death, and no one ever got stabbed in the neck as feared.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-01-28

To my knowledge, GG was always 10ft, 30 minutes.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-28

it is currently 30ft, 15 minutes. I recalled it much more like you, 15ft 30 minutes, but recall the time changing. Oh well.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Snudge » 2013-01-28

So if "Participants may not punch, slap, or kick the body of another participant. A participant may not grab or pull on the costume, neck, or hair of another participant" is in the rule book without any mention of force or intent. Doesn't that make any closed fist contact come under the punch category? Which means that such contact is not a legal under the rules? And if its not legal under the rules then the spell isn't discharged?
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-28

are you currently trying to say fist bumping someone instead of a hand shake is "punching them"?
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Cog » 2013-01-28

What level of power is required with a closed fist to fall into the "punch" category. Or if a fist bump isn't considered a punch, would it even be considered a "hit" to dispell someone?

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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Snudge » 2013-01-29

No I am trying determine what level of contact and force is required to count as a hit to dispel/expend the spell, and if it is a closed fist type of contact, not be considered a punch. As a fist dump is obviously not a punch, but does require a level of force
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-29

according to the rulebook, the level of force needed is a touch.

as far as what constitutes a punch, that is up to the NC or EB interpretation.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Snudge » 2013-01-29

ok, appreciate the explanation. That's all I needed to know.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Cog » 2013-01-29

So if a fist bump can dispell a prayer touch, anything that touches the cleric with prayer touch active will dispell it. Such as if a gold piece fell and hit the clerics foot, or if a butterfly lands on the clerics head. Then by that rule, technically when it is raining, prayer touch can't be used because you would be touched by rain drops. From that interpretation I would be correct.

From my understanding, if in that case, the player was being hit, then the player could only be hit by a legal darkon weapon or spellball.

If it was about being dispelled based on what the cleric touched, do we rule that if a cleric touches anything or is touched by anything while prayer touch is active it then becomes dispelled? Or do we play it based on how its written and it's only dispelled by what the cleric touches. "The stored spell will be released upon the first
thing the Cleric touches."

I'm just curious if the rain, a butterfly, or a gold coin(it could be silver instead of gold) could dispell a cleric's prayer touch

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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-01-29

-Cog- wrote:So if a fist bump can dispell a prayer touch, anything that touches the cleric with prayer touch active will dispell it. Such as if a gold piece fell and hit the clerics foot, or if a butterfly lands on the clerics head.

It would have to touch his hands, if anything.

Then by that rule, technically when it is raining, prayer touch can't be used because you would be touched by rain drops. From that interpretation I would be correct.

We don't consider rain "a thing" for any other spell (or arrows). An arrow is dead once it impacts anything. If someone fires it in light rain (obviously in heavy rain we'd call them), nobody says "THAT ARROW IS DEAD, IT HIT RAIN!"

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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Sir Sturmbjorne » 2013-01-29

-Cog- wrote:So if a fist bump can dispell a prayer touch, anything that touches the cleric with prayer touch active will dispell it. Such as if a gold piece fell and hit the clerics foot, or if a butterfly lands on the clerics head. Then by that rule, technically when it is raining, prayer touch can't be used because you would be touched by rain drops. From that interpretation I would be correct.

I'm just curious if the rain, a butterfly, or a gold coin(it could be silver instead of gold) could dispell a cleric's prayer touch


>.<

Seriously?!?

Let's use some common sense when thinking about this and not just jump to extreme situations to make this that much more ridiculous.

No you cannot punch someone to use prayer touch; it's against the rules; but any other LEGAL contact to that player would set it off (or disrupt any other spell being cast); such as a friend bumping into them, an arrow, a shieldbash or giving a passer by a hug...

Once again, common sense makes these "grey" areas easier to deal with.
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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by Cog » 2013-01-29

I agree, This whole topic has become ridiculous.

However, the whole intent on prayer touch, was a lay hands spell such as burning hands. A kind of spell that uses the palms of the casters hands to pass a spell or spell-like affect through. Should mages be allowed to use burning hands with fist bumps? I don't think they should, but it doesn't clarify whether they can or cannot. I believe that prayer touch and burning hands act in the same fashion, with open palms channeling the spell, not the backs of hands or the knuckles of a player.

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Re: Prayer Touch question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-01-30

The spell is set off when the person wearing prayer touch gloves touches any person or any object (not rain or wind or any other stupid suggestions) with either hand.

Such is the intent of the spell to touch an object or person with your hand.

If you have prayer touch gloves on dont touch ANYTHING with your hand.

As head spell marshall until replaced this is my interpretation and the President is free to overturn it as he sees fit.
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