Credits/Characters/Classes Question

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Snudge
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Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-13

It has been stated that people are playing separate characters of the same class.
I have 51 levels as a thief. Snudge is a character, however if I suddenly decide to roleplay a thief, but a different character. There is nothing preventing me from doing so, as a lvl 51 thief that isn't snudge. Nobles are telling me its ok.

For clarification purposes, I want to know how this is possible.
Chapter two of the rules seems to preclude me doing this as it specifies that each character starts as first rank.
And that as the player attends events as that character it advances in rank. If I ever made a different thief character, wouldn't he start as level 1 and level up on a completely different track than snudge has?
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-03-13

That also begs the question if you can have two thieves why can't I have two+ rangers. When the multi-Mage debates came up, it was said that multiple was and exploit of a gray area... And I was told by a few big shots that if a second cleric or ranger was started by people, they would be told to not continue.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-03-13

I will look over the wording tonight - then I will make a ruling within the next 3 days on this ... if anyone has information relitive to this discussion please contact me using the private messaging system

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Inox
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-14

Snudge,

You are confusing character in the sense of each discreet class with character persona that you RP.

Remember, they keep track in the credit database of class & credits. Character NAME is not listed, because it is up to you to determine/change/etc.

You could check in as a Thief and request that they start a different tally for that also-unnamed "character". However, I and many others feel that this is just a metagaming dodge to avoid assassination repercussions, and makes no logical sense in game. :D

Anyhow, we have always ALWAYS had the freedom to start any given event deciding how we are going to RP the ranks in a given class.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Bors Drakmoryn » 2013-03-14

You know, I miss Darkon less everyday.

When did you all become such rules lawyers? I mean, Darkon is largely based on the honor system. It's why an individual calls his/her own hits, keeps track of their own spell points and hits to their armor and is trusted to go to Hades when required. If an individual can not be trusted to do these things or in fact be trusted to be honest about the level of their character they are playing, why let them continue playing the game? Why codify into the game extra busy work for the players and the Secretary? Because, if it becomes a rule, the Secretary will have to keep track of all of it. Because you're telling the players they are not to be trusted to be honest.

And what happens if Snudge (to be used as an example) decides to change countries and wants to change his name when he does so, to make a clean break with his old country and have a fresh start with the new one. That's a new character, for all intents and purposes. Does he lose his 51st level thief because of reasons that would probably have nothing to be with gameplay? If that's the case, I would urge Snudge to stay with his old country, the penalty for change is too high.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-14

Bors Drakmoryn wrote:And what happens if Snudge (to be used as an example) decides to change countries and wants to change his name when he does so, to make a clean break with his old country and have a fresh start with the new one. That's a new character, for all intents and purposes. Does he lose his 51st level thief because of reasons that would probably have nothing to be with gameplay?


Things like this have happened countless times in the history of Darkon, and we've never made anyone start over. The idea is ridiculous, honestly.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Bors Drakmoryn » 2013-03-14

But how can you say it won't happen? You all seem hell bent on getting a legion of other nonsense rules pushed through, how do you know that when you're not looking, someone won't sneak something past you?

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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-14

I'm not sure what you're on about. No one is proposing a rule on this; we're just clarifying what's always been the case.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-14

Inox I'm not confusing anything. Please look at chapter two, and read the wording carefully.
there is no such thing as "class" in darkon, and persona is directly mentioned in developing a character under alignment. So different personas for a single character don't really fly. "And characters must have an original name, that they will be known by". That is direct quote from the rules. So a different name for that same character means, it can't be the same character.

My reading of the rules as a D&D metaphor is that for each character, you would have one character sheet. The current interpretation I'm being told is that I can have two or more characters, one character sheet.

What DM would ever allow this, and I believe our rules do not. And if they do permit it, I will certainly be doing it at future events. I just don't want anyone to be able to accuse me of cheating, when my reading of the rules seems to indicate I shouldn't be able to. Hence my reason for asking for the clarification
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-03-14

To me that more or less says that you have a character, and it is not attached to class, and you have a name for that character. That's all.

So your thief credits can be Bob one day and Tom the other, two separate characters who both are of the "thief class", and use the same ranks.

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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-14

Snudge wrote:Inox I'm not confusing anything. Please look at chapter two, and read the wording carefully.
there is no such thing as "class" in darkon, and persona is directly mentioned in developing a character under alignment. So different personas for a single character don't really fly. "And characters must have an original name, that they will be known by". That is direct quote from the rules. So a different name for that same character means, it can't be the same character.


No no no. 1000x no.

The only issue is in the rules using the term interchangeably for the character you are RPing, and the character class on the records.

You can try to read between the lines and infer that it somehow is all tied up, but I am telling you this has NEVER been the case, nor how it was intended to be. And this is coming from a guy who used to hang out with the founder/initial rules writer at his house.

You are correct that we don't use "class"; we use the term "type" instead. Still, same result:

"Each type of character is unique, and each will give participants different abilities."

Note that it does not say, "Each type chosen FOR a character". It quite explicitly means that a type IS a character.

The RP elements and mechanics elements have always been separate, and there is no game balance argument for tying them together. It would be a needless restriction on fun that we've never, ever used.

Snudge wrote: My reading of the rules as a D&D metaphor is that for each character, you would have one character sheet. The current interpretation I'm being told is that I can have two or more characters, one character sheet.

What DM would ever allow this, and I believe our rules do not. And if they do permit it, I will certainly be doing it at future events. I just don't want anyone to be able to accuse me of cheating, when my reading of the rules seems to indicate I shouldn't be able to. Hence my reason for asking for the clarification


D&D is different in just about every meaningful way. Characters in D&D that die don't automatically come back, either. They die, and you roll up a new one. If the party's all playing a level 12 dungeon, they aren't going to force you to roll a level 1 character to join them. It would be pointless.

Not to mention we pay real $ to play this game & earn our ranks. It's absurd that they should be locked down to an RP choice that we have no way to enforce whatsoever. The only thing we could ever enforce is a name; are we going to tell people that they must act a certain way, or that they have to submit a character backstory? There is no mandatory level of RP. This whole conversation is patently absurd.

When RP style becomes a balance issue, we are well on the primrose path to turdville.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-03-14

I think people should have the freedom to re-invent their character if they switch countries, want to try something new RP-wise, or something of that nature. Many people have done this over the years. What I don't like the idea of is me being able to come out as Exodus the high level cleric one event, then play Murderface the holyweapon destroying high cleric of Suck the next (commit every attrocity known to man) and then go back to being Exodus the next event. Or maybe I could get a guild as Todd the assassin, then transfer it to my new persona Tim the assassin, then Skippy the assassin etc. So I'm in favor of reasonable re-inventing of a character , but I don't think you should be able to switch back and forth willy-nilly and use it as an out of game mechanic to get away with stuff.

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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-14

Wy not? I can play a Thief one event, a Mage the next, a Monk after that, etc.

Only thing you'd be getting away with in your Cleric example is RP.

Guildmasters are a horrible mechanic overall, but they should follow the same rule as Assassinations; bound to the class ranks and persona that acquired the Guildmaster status until it is lost. Of course, Assassins have for years started second Assassin characters to hide away Guildmasters. That's just as sketchy imo.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-15

So should I start referring to myself as Fingers1, Fingers2, Fingers3, etc?
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-19

Here is Kevin Z. point...

Bendore is my character, I use both my thief credits and fighter credits to play him.

I have ranger credits, that have been known as Connor and Aethilwulf. Two different characters.

This is the intent behind our system. Anything deviating from that intent should be removed from the rulebook unless the club as a whole (not just Senate) has decided that we want one class - one character.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-03-19

John, Kevin, Potter... I have a question that was debated in the past...
You have two characters that are rangers, lets said that your ranger credits are enough for a 25lvl ranger. You play Connor for a land search, you are killed before you can flee and lose the search. Can you play aethulwolf on the next event? The rules say if a ranger dies on a land search he can not search for 2 events.

Like I said above, and the way that its been done (unless it has changed and I just didn't hear) I can start another ranger... Get him to third level and be able to lose a search every event with my to ranger characters, by just swapping between the two. I start another cleric, a year and a half later I now have two holy weapons. If I had two assassins, I can get one personal writ at tenth, get assassinated play my other hitter of tenth level and have another personal writ....
Multiples of the same class is grey area treading, right?
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-19

Warlordcort wrote:John, Kevin, Potter... I have a question that was debated in the past...
You have two characters that are rangers, lets said that your ranger credits are enough for a 25lvl ranger. You play Connor for a land search, you are killed before you can flee and lose the search. Can you play aethulwolf on the next event? The rules say if a ranger dies on a land search he can not search for 2 events.


No, because that is a rules-related issue, having nothing to do with RP. You can't use the same class/credit accumulation to search 2 events in a row.

Warlordcort wrote:Like I said above, and the way that its been done (unless it has changed and I just didn't hear) I can start another ranger... Get him to third level and be able to lose a search every event with my to ranger characters, by just swapping between the two. I start another cleric, a year and a half later I now have two holy weapons. If I had two assassins, I can get one personal writ at tenth, get assassinated play my other hitter of tenth level and have another personal writ....
Multiples of the same class is grey area treading, right?


Yeah, I see it as a sort of metagaming, but there is nothing in the rules strictly prohibiting starting two separate tallies for the same class. I don't do it myself, but I know others do.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-19

So believe it or not this issue has come up in the rulebook read-thru done by an editor. The use of class and character is inconsistent and confusing and as I explained to them totally unfixable without the Senate being involved (so it is being left alone).

We use the two terms interchangeably which can result in unexpected or desired results if we have strict adherence to the rules as written (I was not focused on this issue last year else it would have been made more evident in enforcement)...

It should probably be addressed but that is a big job.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-19

Lord Dubh wrote:So believe it or not this issue has come up in the rulebook read-thru done by an editor. The use of class and character is inconsistent

It should probably be addressed but that is a big job.


We also use "type" instead of class in many places.

I am happy to get together with some people and work out a way to get this all clear & uniform.

I think a "character" is a combination of "class" and "persona". The persona can change from day to day, as can the class. They can mix and match. Assassination takes out the current persona *and* class for the duration of the effect.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-19

-Inox- wrote:
Lord Dubh wrote:So believe it or not this issue has come up in the rulebook read-thru done by an editor. The use of class and character is inconsistent

It should probably be addressed but that is a big job.


We also use "type" instead of class in many places.

I am happy to get together with some people and work out a way to get this all clear & uniform.

I think a "character" is a combination of "class" and "persona". The persona can change from day to day, as can the class. They can mix and match. Assassination takes out the current persona *and* class for the duration of the effect.


Consider this a FB "Like" Something to stop editorial eyes from bleeding and brain pain would be nice. Other than structure, this is the most INCONSISTENT thing about our rules.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Snudge » 2013-03-20

I support this idea, and am willing to help.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Lord Dubh » 2013-03-21

FWIW the following text is part of a proposal.

This is a fictional being that is being portrayed by a participant. This being only exists in the scope of the game and the actions of this being should not be taken as the actions of the participant. This being lives according to the rules of the game and exists only at the whim of the participant.


It would follow the current text of:

Every participant in Darkon must create at least one character that they will role-play during events. Participants may choose to identify their character as any one of the eight listed character types (see Chapter Five: Types of Characters).

A character should have an original battle name, by which that character will be known. Participants should refrain from using common historical, or fantasy names such as Ivanhoe, Merlin, or Red Sonja. Participants should also refrain from using any title that may correspond with a title of Nobility (see Nobility) or occupational title as a preface to their names. During events, participants should always be referred to by their battle names.

Participants may also choose to play races other than human (elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.), but will not receive any racial abilities. If a participant chooses to play a race other than human, they are encouraged to wear costumes, make-up, etc. to fit the race that they have chosen. Participants may develop their own history, philosophy, religion, superstition, etc. to help define their character.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Magistrate » 2013-03-22

Thank you for the question I have thought on this long and hard and have to make a ruling on this as magistrate till it is possibly changed by senate ... this is my 2 cents on the matter

Any player can use the same name for more then one of the classes he or she plays- when a person choses to do this and they are assasinated then all classes that named character plays as that named character can not be played for the duration of the assination If I am killed as Cailen the fighter then I can not come back as Cailen the cavileer because the assassin killed "Cailen".

When you chose a character to play (class) by the rules you assign a name to play to that character (class) and you assign a personality which while you are playing that character. During this time you are gaining the ability to get more powerful and getting additional abilities - that character (class) is the name you assign them forever - this does not mean you can not change that name and thereby (threw magic or whatever story line the race and personality) BUT if the orignal name was BOB then you are still BOB - now BOB may radically change - but he is both BOB and the new name that player wishes to play and over time people may adapt this new name and this new personality for BOB but that character is BOB and the new name they chose for all in game purposes.

Several people in the game have done this changing names and personalities and countries over time and in most cases the new personalities are what they are primarily known for and addressed by other players as now.

The idea that each event you could change by useing the combined learned history of a character ( name and a personality) as a whole new character (name and personality) at your whim who is not tied to that learned experienced character and have no ties to the orignal character that you gained those skills by being does not make any sense.

NPCs are a different story for a event where you are playing as a NPC approved by the people running the event you could use your levels or make up levels as needed for the role you are supposed to play at that event and use what ever name the event coordinators agree on.

To allow a player that is x level to switch character and retain thier x level without having to answer to thier name that is a skill that is reserved to thieves - it is a class skill - and to allow people to do it willie nilly does not honor the idea of disguise / does not honor that skill which is in our rules / and to me does not honor that people create a character and threw actually playing that character they get more power with THAT character.

To my knowledge many people have multipule characters with seperate credits associated with the same class that is thier choice to do and currently in the rules there is nothing against doing this.

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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by fingers630 » 2013-03-22

woot Fingers 1-5 it is for me then :)

Sorry, you assassinated Fingers3, Im not playing him today, Im Fingers1.
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Re: Credits/Characters/Classes Question

Post by Inox » 2013-03-22

Looks like it's time to get a proposal together, so people can be clear on IC vs. OOC.
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