Dagger Clarification

Ask your rule questions here, players and officials will respond. Questions that turn into proposal discussions will be moved to the Proposal Discussion forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Alzarahn
Darkonian
Posts: 52
Joined: 2012-01-11

Dagger Clarification

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-01-21

Dagger (Red weapon)
Daggers must have a striking surface between 6" and 8" in length. The total length of a dagger may not exceed 16", the minimum length of a short sword. The tip of the dagger must have additional padding since this weapon is used for thrusting only.


I'm confused by the "striking surface" requirement. Daggers are only used for stabbing.. what's the striking surface?

User avatar
Xunyl
Darkonian
Posts: 20
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: Severn, MD
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Xunyl » 2012-01-21

I think that's any part that could come in contact with another player. I.E. The blade that leads up to the handle. Though despite how it looks, you can only use it as a stabbing weapon, not a slashing.
Chosen Blood soldier.

We are beyond the notions of; good, evil, light or darkness.
There is only order, pure and absolute.

For The Order.
http://www.wix.com/chosenblood/dwc

User avatar
Alzarahn
Darkonian
Posts: 52
Joined: 2012-01-11

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-01-21

This could use some modification. If it's a shaft length and not a striking surface, then it shouldn't be written as a striking surface. Also, 16" isn't the minimum length of a short sword... it's the minimum length of a short sword's blade.

User avatar
Xunyl
Darkonian
Posts: 20
Joined: 2012-01-11
Location: Severn, MD
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Xunyl » 2012-01-21

Now seems to be the season for edits and proposals. :)
Chosen Blood soldier.

We are beyond the notions of; good, evil, light or darkness.
There is only order, pure and absolute.

For The Order.
http://www.wix.com/chosenblood/dwc

User avatar
Prince Andrick
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 226
Joined: 2012-01-10

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-01-21

Xunyl wrote:Now seems to be the season for edits and proposals. :)



And I hate you all for.it. :twisted:
Prince Andrick VanDahl KR, OSW, OR, OD, CM, CC
High Priest of Thor
Elidorian Minister of War
Field Marshal
President 2013

User avatar
Inox
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 571
Joined: 2012-01-09

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Inox » 2012-01-22

Yeah, this rule has bothered me for years. It sounds large, but 16" overall length is not huge for a dagger; mine is very close to that, actually, and it's not in any way oversized.

I think it's one of those things that just got a little scrambled at some point, and no one bothered to fix it. There's no good reason we couldn't see a dagger with a 12" blade and 7" handle. I used to have one like that wayyyyyy back when when I was in Ramen.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON

Sir Caetrel
President
Posts: 277
Joined: 2012-01-11

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-23

Dagger (Red weapon)

Daggers must have a padded, non-striking blade area at least 6" in length. The tip of the dagger must have additional padding since this weapon is used for thrusting only . The blade length of a dagger may not exceed 16", the minimum length of a short sword.


Fixed?
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm

BaiterofBAMC
Darkonian
Posts: 57
Joined: 2012-01-13

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-01-23

I'd rather see the wording changed to take out any mention of short sword. The minimum length swung weapon is 18" for bars, clubs, hammers and axes, but then changes for short swords at 16" blade + handle. Let's try to make the weapons standards consistent. <18" - stabbing. => 18" swinging/stabbing

Daggers must have a padded, non-striking blade area at least 6" in length. The tip of the dagger must have additional padding since this weapon is used for thrusting only . The length of a dagger may not exceed 18".

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-23

If'n you are going that route... state the "full/overall length" of daggers may not exceed. To avoid blade/ full length confusion.
Image

User avatar
Inox
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 571
Joined: 2012-01-09

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Inox » 2012-01-23

Actually, Baiter, that's incorrect.

Bars, maces, & clubs have an 18" OVERALL length, but short swords are 16" minimum BLADE (NOT counting handle). So, you can have a bar with a 12" striking surface, but this is not possible for a short sword.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-23

Yea, I would like to see some uniformity there.
would also like to see it specifically stated in the books if the quillions count as part of the handle or blade measurement. Also if the pommel itself counts, or if handle measurment ends at the base of the pommel.

Does it really matter? Not too much, but its something that has come up a few times in the check in line and I would like to see it all codified.

/end offtopic
Image

User avatar
Prince Andrick
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 226
Joined: 2012-01-10

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-01-23

I have to agree. I am inclined, in the name of simplicity, to say all measurements for handles should start where the blade ends. So, something like "when measuring weapons, everything from the top of the crossguard or courtesy padding to the bottom of the pommel is considered part of the handle" which should cover everything I think.
Prince Andrick VanDahl KR, OSW, OR, OD, CM, CC
High Priest of Thor
Elidorian Minister of War
Field Marshal
President 2013

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-23

I would count the crossguard as part of the blade (to account for the blade built up quillions) and the pommel count as part of the handle ( or not even part of measuring, as its size is indicitive of safety rulings.)

But whichever, I just would like to know how its going to be ruled.
Image

Sir Caetrel
President
Posts: 277
Joined: 2012-01-11

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-23

This is getting well into proposal discussion territory.

Valfryn, Andrick is on point re: crossguards. They can't be considered blade edge, cause they aren't striking surface. They need to be considered part of the handle just as a pommel.
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-23

Roger that.
Image

User avatar
Alzarahn
Darkonian
Posts: 52
Joined: 2012-01-11

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Alzarahn » 2012-01-23

If anyone wants to spearhead a proposal to change the wording, by all means go for it. I'm abstaining from leading rules proposal actions until I have more years...No one is going to want a newb trying to change things, even if it's something that really needed changing.

Sir Caetrel
President
Posts: 277
Joined: 2012-01-11

Go for it

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-23

Anyone intelligent and courteous with a sound ideas would be appreciated in such a capacity, Dwayne. The club survives because people step up to fill empty holes, whether it's admin positions, marshalling, running events, or pointing out vaguaries in the rules and getting them corrected. Darkonians are remarkably open minded, most of the time. :P
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm

User avatar
Sir Tyriel Firebrand
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 369
Joined: 2012-01-26

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-01-26

I would think that qullions would be either or. Why not just count the qullions as part of whatever they are apart of.
~No Quarter!~
~Warriors Guild~
~Knight of Tuesday~
~"Winning is teaching, losing is learning"~

Sir Caetrel
President
Posts: 277
Joined: 2012-01-11

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-01-26

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I would think that qullions would be either or. Why not just count the qullions as part of whatever they are apart of.


Because they're never blades, you can't hit someone with them. If a 16" shortsword has 2 inches of quillons at the base of the blade, leaving only 14" of striking surface, it's not a legal white sword. Even a little nub of quillion with tape around it is not part of the cloth covered edge.
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm

User avatar
Kobalos
Moderator
Posts: 215
Joined: 2012-01-06
Location: Paledor
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Kobalos » 2012-01-26

Plus, that just makes it simpler. "Blade" = "striking surface". Total length = striking (blade) + non-striking (quillions, handle, pommel).
--Κοβαλος

Baron Kobalos
Fauzi ibn-al-Rashid al-Halabi, KR, OR, CB
Steward of House Dubh
Director, First Royal Darkon Trust
Head NC Armor Marshal 2014

User avatar
Lord Valfryn
Knight of the Realm
Posts: 761
Joined: 2012-01-10
Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
Contact:

Re: Dagger Clarification

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-01-26

Yes. Wording. Yes.
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests