Darkon's Expectations

Discussions related to the topic of having Darkon chapters or an over-all Darkon Alliance of clubs all using the same rules or similar enough rules to allow for inter-club events, and character reciprocity.
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Lord Dubh
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Darkon's Expectations

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-08

We should also consider what our expectations are of other groups...

Mine are simple enough:

To be a Full Realm (this has rights that other groups do not get)
1) Must be incorporated as a non-profit/not for profit.
2) Must provide minimum liability required by the sites used by the club.
3) Must meet a requirement in years of activity (chapter is 2 years old for example)
4) Must meet all requirements of a Associate Realm.

To be a Associate Realm
1) Must operate the club as a non-profit/not for profit
2) Must hold events year round at least once a month but no more often then every two weeks.
3) Must follow the Core Rules of the Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. as published.
4) Must have an IC realm name "Realm of ......"
Last edited by Lord Dubh on 2012-02-08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-02-08

So I have a question that I thought of. What would putting a rubber stamp on anyone park do to benefit them and/or us?
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-02-08

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:So I have a question that I thought of. What would putting a rubber stamp on anyone park do to benefit them and/or us?


For Rules. If a chapter is going to call itself Darkon and share promotion, they need to follow our rules. If a chapter gets big and organized, they will want a say in those rules. This is the big hurdle.

How other chapters affect rules needs to be determined by the stamp that park gets, and it all needs to be spelled out clearly.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-08

Sir Caetrel wrote:
Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:So I have a question that I thought of. What would putting a rubber stamp on anyone park do to benefit them and/or us?


For Rules. If a chapter is going to call itself Darkon and share promotion, they need to follow our rules. If a chapter gets big and organized, they will want a say in those rules. This is the big hurdle.

How other chapters affect rules needs to be determined by the stamp that park gets, and it all needs to be spelled out clearly.


Exactly.

By having the two tiered realm structure it ensures that any club that has a say in the making of rules (assuming that right exists) all meet the same requirements, which are the same requirements that Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. has for itself.

If other Darkon affiliated clubs are not going to have a say in the Core Rules then a tiered system is not necessary.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Defalcone » 2012-02-08

Lord Dubh wrote:We should also consider what our expectations are of other groups...

Mine are simple enough:

To be a Full Realm (this has rights that other groups do not get)
1) Must be incorporated as a non-profit/not for profit.
2) Must provide minimum liability required by the sites used by the club.
3) Must meet a requirement in years of activity (chapter is 2 years old for example)
4) Must meet all requirements of a Associate Realm.

To be a Associate Realm
1) Must operate the club as a non-profit/not for profit
2) Must hold events year round at least once a month but no more often then every two weeks.
3) Must follow the Core Rules of the Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. as published.
4) Must have an IC realm name "Realm of ......"


Maybe all groups should start as an Associate Realm and work their way to Full Realm, this would allow time for groups to figure out many of the things they will need.

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-09

Defalcone wrote:
Lord Dubh wrote:We should also consider what our expectations are of other groups...

Mine are simple enough:

To be a Full Realm (this has rights that other groups do not get)
1) Must be incorporated as a non-profit/not for profit.
2) Must provide minimum liability required by the sites used by the club.
3) Must meet a requirement in years of activity (chapter is 2 years old for example)
4) Must meet all requirements of a Associate Realm.

To be a Associate Realm
1) Must operate the club as a non-profit/not for profit
2) Must hold events year round at least once a month but no more often then every two weeks.
3) Must follow the Core Rules of the Darkon Wargaming Club, Inc. as published.
4) Must have an IC realm name "Realm of ......"


Maybe all groups should start as an Associate Realm and work their way to Full Realm, this would allow time for groups to figure out many of the things they will need.


That is my thought as well. A tiered approach to give clubs a chance to form and grow.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Defalcone » 2012-02-09

So after talking with my people this is what we, as a hopeful Realm would like to see.

1) Core and Optional Rules- A core rule set is pretty easy, the ones that sprang to our minds quickly was Classes, class abilities, spells, weapons, armor, hit system. All of those NEED to be a requirement. Those that fall under the optional rules are things such as The land map, maybe you have one, maybe you don’t. Nobility, how do you choose them and the types you have? Governing body, our group isn’t large enough for an Executive Board, so we just use a Noble Council.

2) A National Credit Registry- This lets any player, from any of the realms go to another and play with their establish character.

3) Heraldry-have something set up so heraldry is not repeated among the realms.

4) A National Event- Once a year have a National Event, (campout style, doesn’t have to be an adventure, Thrush had mentioned crusades, we will post more on this later) a large Realm or a group of smaller realms host it every year

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-02-09

Defalcone I agree 100%
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by jayjay » 2012-02-10

i don't think a national heraldry registry is needed. in fifteen years of amtgard (most people have their own personal symbols), i don't think i've ever seen someone come up with the same thing as someone else. sure, i've seen similar things (lots of chaos stars out there) and certain themes (red and black is super popular) seem to be used a lot, but i haven't seen same. i also think that a national registry could inhibit creativity. i mean who gets to say what is too similar to what is already out there? finally, letting people stumble upon similar stuff can open up a lot of good interaction between groups. as an example, there is an amtgard park in NoVA that had heraldry similar to NQ's. we went down there and gave them notice. it made for a decent day of fighting and the best turn out that park has had.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-10

The heraldry registry is a nice bonus, but should not be a dealbreaker. It would just be a nice thing to have all of the heraldry out there as part of a show and It'd make for a nice thing as a who's who kind of thing. I don't think John means that there is going to be a conclave of people meeting to say " You can't use this heraldry" I just think it's more for the pomp.

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by jayjay » 2012-02-10

well, in that care, good idea.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-13

BaiterofBAMC wrote:The heraldry registry is a nice bonus, but should not be a dealbreaker. It would just be a nice thing to have all of the heraldry out there as part of a show and It'd make for a nice thing as a who's who kind of thing. I don't think John means that there is going to be a conclave of people meeting to say " You can't use this heraldry" I just think it's more for the pomp.


The SCA actually has a national registry to prevent over-lap. Of course they are HUGE compared to what we could be. Cormac is working on this IC and OOC for our club but I have not see what he is working on yet.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-19

One thing that I do like about Amt is that they have a delinated nobility and belt system. I'd like for this to be a part of the core rules. Nobles in the true sense of the word should be people that we have put up as the best examples of us. I think that some skeleton system should be put up to recognize how nobility is set up and what the expectations are for someone to be considered a noble. That way when we have travelers to and from Darkon, we can have some consistency that we can put on a face and name.

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Defalcone » 2012-02-20

BaiterofBAMC wrote:One thing that I do like about Amt is that they have a delinated nobility and belt system. I'd like for this to be a part of the core rules. Nobles in the true sense of the word should be people that we have put up as the best examples of us. I think that some skeleton system should be put up to recognize how nobility is set up and what the expectations are for someone to be considered a noble. That way when we have travelers to and from Darkon, we can have some consistency that we can put on a face and name.


That’s a very interesting idea; I can see where you’re coming from. I will touch on this a little later, right now I wanted to talk about some of the concerns Darkon has about Chapters. First of all the telling the chapters what to do. Well I understand this, but we have been using your rules since 2007 and never once have you told us what to do, we use the rules because WE WANT TO!

The same goes for almost any group who want to join a group with chapters, they just want to play the game. They don’t want to mess around with the rules, they are already in place and the group gets to jump in feet first and start swinging.

Core rules are no brainers, and they must be in place; it is where optional rules come into play that give the other clubs freedom. The use of the land map, do they even have one? If they do maybe the encounter chart is different, maybe they have creatures not native to Darkon and so on.

Now I’m going to touch on nobility. I can see where Baiter is coming from on this one. I agree with the criteria on how nobles should be chosen among the groups. I would like to think we choose our nobles the same way you do, sportsmanship. Our nobles, be they good or evil IC, have shown OOC qualities that set them apart from others in the game.

They respect the rules, they respect others, they extend help to new players freely, they address unsafe situations promptly, and over all they promote a safe, fun, and rich game environment! I cannot think of anyone more deserving of a noble title than these people.

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Garwa Mayharr » 2012-02-20

Defalcone beat me to it, and I am glad he did. He said it better then I ever could have said it. Defalcone is right most people just want to play. Getting involved in the rules when making your game own or making modifications to a rule book can be hard and boring task. That is what brought COMARR-Silverdain to its down fall. Silverdain started out strong with the Darkon rules, then merged with COMARR. Then the new president made the decision to change some rules. He started changing all the rules and kept pushing to get rid of Classes and had no real rules in place so people wore confused. Also, because of his board-game like rules we lost members. Now that split, and went back to adopting the Darkon rules again and things are much simpler. The point is, simpler is better, and work sucks. The more FUN members are having the more likely they are to stick around.

And my two penny's on the nobility thing. Both Baiter and Defalcone have a good point. I here alot about how becoming a Noble in Darkon is only a popularity contest. Having been to Darkon once, I have know room to comment on this. But I do think that the title of Noble should be awarded on how someone is in there sportsmanship and whatnot.

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-02-20

Posting in this thread because it is the most recently active.

Are we to the point where we should make a Senate proposal? This would be a non-binding prop to establish that there is enough consensus in Senate to explore official chapters. This would result in a committee being established under EB guidance that would do all the work, and ultimately present documents to the EB and Senate for approval.

I'll help roll this ball uphill. But we need Senate backing and EB support to even begin development.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-20

Sir Caetrel wrote:Posting in this thread because it is the most recently active.

Are we to the point where we should make a Senate proposal? This would be a non-binding prop to establish that there is enough consensus in Senate to explore official chapters. This would result in a committee being established under EB guidance that would do all the work, and ultimately present documents to the EB and Senate for approval.

I'll help roll this ball uphill. But we need Senate backing and EB support to even begin development.


I agree with you.

I think we should get permission from the Senate (you will already have it from the EB) to pursue this. Have something explaining the intent, quotes from groups already wanting to be a chapter (we have 3 now) and be prepared to nip the "Darkon will get a bad name" and "liability" complaints in the bud.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Defalcone » 2012-02-20

If there is anything we can do to help please do hesitate to ask. We are more than willing to roll up our sleeves and gat our hands dirty to make this happen!

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Garwa Mayharr » 2012-02-21

We have your back as well. if you need anything, Please Ask

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-02-21

As the current Magistrate and a long time Darkon member (longer then most of you whipper snappers have been alive) I will give 100% effort to see this happen. We may not be able to get a National event to happen while I can still fight, but maybe someday I will be able to roll out in my wheelchair to one!
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Taggart MacBannion » 2012-02-21

Duke Andrick wrote:As the current Magistrate and a long time Darkon member (longer then most of you whipper snappers have been alive) I will give 100% effort to see this happen. We may not be able to get a National event to happen while I can still fight, but maybe someday I will be able to roll out in my wheelchair to one!


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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-23

Ok so proposal to Senate to push for an opening of chapters discussion.

Proposal will have Chapter organization, and what it means to be a chapter.

So far the organization that I like best is the two tier system of Full realm and Associate realm. With each having rules of organization to be part of the greater whole. Part of the agreement is the use of the "Core" rules, ( Hit system, weapon, armor shield specs and classes) for intergame play. I will call the " core " rules the National basic rules. House rules are ungovernable from a distance and as such Darkon mothership won't touch that issue.

Part of the benefit of being a realm of Darkon is the use of an online record keeper for ease of traveling people

During the National Event we can have a meeting to discuss rules changes safety concerns and have a vote of some variety. ( I suggest following Dag/Bel standards on this to start) This is to modifications of National rules only.

It very well may be that Darkon in the MDNOVA may eventually play with it's own house rules that vary from the National Basic rules as every Darkon's house rules will be fitted to cater to the needs of each group. My feeling is that for the most part very little variation will occur over the national spectrum due to two factors. 1. Online record keeper. If this is done then there will be small impetus to play a class that is not recognized in other realms. If I wanted to play a whirling dervish then I know that it would not register anywhere else that Darkon is played.
2. Sheer laziness. If it isn't broken, then why do we have to fix it? The game's core rules have been in place for a long time and that's the gist of what we need to go out and hit each other.


My opinion about asking for Senate permission is that it's a false move and we shouldn't need to ask the public about this. The VP is already in charge of intergame relations and the Pres is in charge of general stewardship of the club. If this isn't an intergame relations issue to be brokered by the VP I don't know what is. I was assigned to be Chapter coordinator by Shafor back when he was pres a few years ago and my role was to help facilitate chapter interaction. It didn't happen since Senate shot it down. We have multiple chapters in an unofficial manner already. Let's just do the work and get the ball rolling instead of letting this issue sit in Senate for a few months. Just announce that the EB has decided to move on chapters stuff and present this to Senate as an announcement of the EB's intent and to ask for volunteers.

I know it's a bit heavyhanded, but dealing with Senate is going to drain the life out of any momentum that all of us are going to have.

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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-02-23

Thinh,

I greatly respect your experience in having dealt with chapters in the past. I would like to form a small committee to spearhead this initiative if the President is willing, and I'd love to work with you. I think this can be done electronically. It's alot of simple common sense and we have our prior initiatives plus other games' contracts to light the way.

I asked Ash/ Yoshi to be involved in this, based on his extensive comments on the boards here, and he has put some initial plans in writing on how such a committee would procede. He is extremely qualified in my opinion. He is a 24 year veteran of Darkon with extensive knowledge of Amtgard's chapter system and has been involved in establishing new parks for that game. He has the needed outside knowledge and a firm foundation in Darkon.

I think it would also be crucial to include representatives from our potential chapters as sounding boards, in the very least.

I think two things are absolutely necessary to do this. The first is getting Senate's support before we start. I know it can be painful, but this will ultimately be a bylaws change, which will require massive support. If we can't get that nod up front we will just be working in vain.

The second thing is direct communication with the EB. Any document we develop needs to be ran through the EB and have their backing before it is officially presented for consideration. Otherwise we would be presenting it without the EB's backing and support, and worse...they could veto it from passing. This is exactly what happened in 2002. I was partly responsible as an EB member at the time. The prop passed Senate and we torpedo'd it in the EB...

I really think our hands are tied for procedure. We must:

1. Submit a non-binding proposal to Senate to devise the appropriate documents to make Chapters.

2. Begin work as a committee to devise these documents.

3. Work with the EB and iron out every problem they have with it until we have documents they will stand behind.

4. Present the results as a binding proposal to add chapters to Darkon officially.

This will only happen if we have the overwhelming support from Senate and EB. If anyone wants to be a big bear and fight this from happening, we need to wrestle them up front. We all need to be on the same page.
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-23

Thinh,

The EB has already discussed this a few members feel very strongly that since the Senate killed this discussion in 2005 and the EB in 2002 we really need both bodies to give the go ahead to even explore it.

John
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Re: Darkon's Expectations

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-23

John, I understand what we need to do, just dreading the brawl that will occur. That being said, lets put up a proposal.

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