Blocking Arrows with Weapons

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Gor Strayhorn
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Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2013-10-06

According to the rulebook available online, it states on page 23:

"If an arrow is intentionally blocked, caught, or deflected by a participant through means other than a shield, that participant suffers a light wound to the limb that blocked the arrow, regardless of armor."

So if a player places weapon(s) profile to protect their body from missiles weapons are intentionally blocking (because it is deliberately due to block the missile weapons), correct?

I know that Darkon allows this to continue, but according to the rules as written this is an illegal tactic.

I guess the Magistrate and/or President can suspend this rule, interpret "intentionally" a different way or enforce this RAW.


/rant
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-10-06

As we talked today the magistrate (me) will make a ruling on it per the rules within next few days thank you for posting as I requested on the board brother. I will look over the text ... and deliberate on a ruling then post it.

Again thank you for posting this and I will give answer on it when I have fully considered it from all angles. In the past as I said today people place the weapon in front of themselves as a blocker when they do this they are not allowed to move at all for if they do as the arrow is coming in and if the arrow hits a weapon that is being placed to intercept the arrow they must take the hit - at the same time if they do not move at all when the arrow comes in and the arrow hits the weapon then they in the past were considered to not actively be blocking and in that case no hit would be registered - this being the old way I will review the exact wording and think on it.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by fingers630 » 2013-10-07

at the same time if they do not move at all when the arrow comes in and the arrow hits the weapon then they in the past were considered to not actively be blocking and in that case no hit would be registered - this being the old way I will review the exact wording and think on it.


This is the way this has always been and I have never seen a problem with it. If they move their arms/weapon to block a shot, then it counts as attempting to deflect the shot. If they do not, and you hit their weapon, you are just a bad archer and need to reroll as a monk :)
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Inox » 2013-10-07

The problem comes when people hold their weapon in front of them and are charging the archer or otherwise moving about. That's no longer incidental contact, and is using a weapon as a shield.

It's even cheesier in Darkon because if the arrow with its huge head even barely brushes the edge of the weapon, people want to call it a deflection/ricochet, and not take the hit.

Bottom line: Don't be a cheesy bastard with blocking illegally. Shields are super easy to get, and are very hard to destroy. Stoneskin, Steelskin, Ironskin, Missile Ward, and any armor of chainmail (AC 3) or better can automatically stop an arrow. Plus, Monks can even block arrows with their weapons if you truly need that ability. If you still have to do some grey area blocking, you should reroll as a spectator.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-10-07

If you're standing there and an arrow happens to hit your weapon, no problem. If you see the archer and then position your weapon in between yourself and the direction of the archer, then that's blocking. Especially if you're turning axes or hammers sideways to cover more of you. That again is blocking.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Inox » 2013-10-07

exoduscleric wrote:If you're standing there and an arrow happens to hit your weapon, no problem. If you see the archer and then position your weapon in between yourself and the direction of the archer, then that's blocking. Especially if you're turning axes or hammers sideways to cover more of you. That again is blocking.



Completely agreed.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Inox » 2013-10-07

Also, in case there's any question with what I said, I completely agree with Gor's initial post.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by shroom2021 » 2013-10-11

It sounds to me like the spirit of the rule was to compensate for the draw strength limitations of our bows. A 30 pound draw will lob an arrow toward someone who if they are paying attention can easily swat it away. A real arrow travels much faster making it neigh impossible for anyone to do this, unless they are a monk who has trained for years to do just that.

I see no problem orienting a weapon to reduce the angles of an arrow so long as you do not do it after the arrow has been fired.

IE. I see an archer lining up on me, all I have is this big a** glaive. I orient myself so that I am as tucked behind the glaive as I can be. Arrow deflects off the glaive, I live, No problem.

IE2. I see an archer take a shot and the arrow is on its way. I then move my glaive in front of me and allow it to deflect the arrow without "swatting" it. Problem, I am still reacting to a projectile in a way that I should technically be unable to do. The arrow should be moving much faster so there shouldn't be a way for me to see it coming, and then orient myself.


I do see the grey here though. My giant boffer is much more broad than its true life counter part. How likely is it that an arrow will even deflect enough off of it to miss me at all? My initial reaction to this question is that it is unlikely that a metal blade held in my hands will be capable of deflecting a projectile moving at high velocities away from my body at an angle that would inhibit it from actually making contact with a part of my body.

After thinking it through, I would say that unless it strikes a shield, or you are a monk class, arrows should count regardless of what part of you they strike, weapons included.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-10-11

Too much reality in your post, shroom. Think about other reasons people hold swords in front of them in this game... To block spears. Would holding two swords in front of you help you block an actual spear? There's a good chance that would be "NO", and even if it were "YES", you just got stabbed in the hand and are bleeding profusely.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Inox » 2013-10-13

Missile weapons are different, Iltzafein, because:

1. You get an effectively limitless number of spear stabs.
2. You can apply a lot more force with a stab to push through/past weapons.
3. The rules are designed around blocking melee weapons with melee weapons and shields, and are generally balanced accordingly.

Using a weapon to hide behind, as a passive barrier for missiles, is using it as a shield. It's taking the fact that we allow courteously arrows that hit weapons to not count, and exploits it.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2013-10-13

Thank you for your patience... I have been rather busy so took me a while to respond.

The wording for missile weapons is as follows:

Missile  Weapons     There   are   two   types   of   missile   weapons   in   Darkon:   javelins  and  arrows.    Missile  weapons  are  legal  only  to  normal  legal  hit  zones  and  do  red  damage.   Arrows  and   javelins   must   impact   by   their   tips   in   order   to   inflict   damage;  glancing  hits  do  not  cause  damage.     Arrows   and   javelins   may   be   blocked   normally   by   shields.     Javelins   may   also   be   blocked,   caught,   or   deflected   as   long   as   this   is   done   to   the   shaft   of   the  javelin.    If  an  arrow  is  intentionally  blocked,  caught,  or   deflected   by   a   player   through   means   other   than   a   shield,  that  player  suffers  a  light  wound  to  the  limb   that  blocked  the  arrow,  regardless  of  armor.    The  same   penalty   applies   to   a   player   who   interferes   with   the   flight  of  a  javelin  by  its  tip.     Missile   weapon   hits   do   not   count   if   they   have   ricocheted  or  deflected  off  a  shield  or  another  player.    
They  must  hit  directly  in  order  to  count.   "

Carefully reviewing this the wording is indeed clear on how it should be interpreted. At the same time the wording does not reflect even slightly the practice that has been in use for over 25 years of placing a weapon between you and the archer to provide cover. I believe this should be addressed one way or the other in senate with a word change to reflect the current practice. This leads to further review of just what or why the placing of a weapon between you and the archer resolves. For now while trying to both adhere to the rules as written and to the spirit if implantation of those rules I will rule the following way.

If a player places a weapon as a blocking instrument between themselves and the archer AND THEY DO NOT MOVE AT ALL AFTER THE ARROW IS RELEASED IN THIER DIRECTION and the arrow hits the weapon and deflects aside not striking them the arrow would be considered not to have hit their subject.

If the player places a weapon between them and an archer and THEY ARE MOVING AT ALL EITHER BY WALKING RUNNING OR CHARGING AT OR AWAY FROM THE ARCHER OR THE WEAPON ARM MOVES AT ALL WHILE THE ARROW IS COMING AT THEM and the arrow hits the weapon it is to be considered as striking the arm of the person that is doing the motion or moving the weapon.

This means if a person stays perfectly still with a weapon in a active block position and the arrow does not hit them then they do not have to take the hit.

BUT if they are moving at all then any hit on their weapon if it is placed in a manner to block the incoming arrow they are to take a arm hit.

THIS RULING ONLY APPLIES TO ACTIVE WEAPON PLACEMENT TO DEFLECT INCOMMING ARROWS - if the person is just fighting or charging and is unaware of the arrow coming their way then they in turn are not actively blocking and therefore it falls to them actually having to be struck to take damage and if in their fighting a arrow bounces off their weapon then it does so harmlessly.

This will prevent a player from charging at an archer while at the same time using a weapon as a shield against the arrow coming their way. If you are going to rush an archer then all bets are off and you will actually have to dodge the arrow to avoid being harmed you will not have the luxury of placing a item that is not a shield between you and your enemy to protect yourself.

I believe this ruling will somewhat fix the issue of people charging archers while holding a weapon in the space between the opponents as a shield which is cheesy and fully against the spirit and wording of the rules.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2013-10-14

I've always played with this mindset in regards to archers.
1. The only thing that stops an arrow is a shield or your body. (If monk, then weapons, hands or feet)
2. If my weapon wasn't there, would the arrow hit me?

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Havoc » 2013-10-14

Placing a weapon in front of your body in an attempt to block an arrow is an intentional action to block an arrow. Stating that placing a weapon in between you and the archer and standing still isn't an intentional block baffles me. Monks are the only class that should be able to block arrows with weapons, no-one else should be able to use them as shields versus projectiles. Giving this interpretation due to 25 years of cheese just continues to allow poor play and sportsmanship. You stated last night you would wait three days before finalizing your decision. I am saddened by the clarification that doesn't clarify a grey area but instead changes a rule.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-10-15

I'm inclined to agree with John. Whether moving or not, putting the weapon in between you and the archer to "block" arrows is intentional. If you're not a monk, take the wound. Making it so moving and not moving have different outcomes will only cause problems with "I shot first, no I stopped moving first" incidents.

The only grey area I can see as being possible is what determines an intentional block or what happens if its unintentional and it hits your weapon when it would have hit your body.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Magistrate » 2013-10-15

Like you John I have been a archer for more years then some people here have been alive my interpretation was to try and bridge the gap between the rules as played and the rules as written period. I can not begin to point out how many thousands of times a player on the other side of my bow has placed a weapon in the space between me and them and then locked themselves into position hoping that my shot would hit their weapon not themselves. And yes if you have a real weapon and place it on its side and turn your body then it is possible for a real arrow to be deflected in this manner even if your profile is 8" and the weapon on its side is 2".

Back to "darkon reality"

I see my ruling is not acceptable to some, mainly archers who are tired of cheese. And I also took so long to make the decision because of as mardux states it opens the door to again cheese and arguments. That being said I will retract my ruling and go with changing the (as you put it cheese) instead of interpreting the rule.

Weapons are not to be used in any way to block any arrows that are coming to you unless you are a monk. If you place a weapon in between you and an archer in any attempt to block and the weapon is struck then you must take a wound to the arm holding the weapon regardless of armor worn. If your weapon is struck while you are in the process of fighting or not aware of the arrow coming at you then it would be considered deflected and you do not have to take a wound. AND NO YOU CANT PLACE YOUR WEAPON BETWEEN YOU AND A ARCHER THEN LOOK AWAY SO YOU ARE NOT "AWARE " OF THE ARROWS PATH the action of locking your weapon in a attempt to have a arrow be deflected is against the rules regarding the ability to block with weapons.

better? if it is then it will become my ruling ... please comment good or bad on the wording above below so I know darkons will.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2013-10-15

First off, the magi made a ruling... Don't wine about it, take it to senate and fix the ruling/rule.
Second, magistrate... two people complained about your call... Stand on your ruling and let them take it to senate.
Third, your final ruling is the better fix of the rule. But your job is to interpret the rule. Is your ruling an interoperation, or a change to it.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Magistrate » 2013-10-15

My initial ruling was based on how we as a organization has been doing it for 25+ years but that being said it could be interpreted as a change to the actual rules as written. That is why in this single case I wish to hear from more then three players. My intention was to honor the rules as written and to honor the way those rules have been played for over 20+ years. In this case it would directly fix the actual on site complaint which was addressed about people charging archers with weapons used as a blocking force as they approached the archer. I will make a final ruling on Friday based on feedback on this forum cause I am not the only person that play's the game and as it directly affects me when I arch I wanted to err on the side of caution as it will affect me directly and in all cases like this where it affects me directly I want and respectfully need the input of the organization as a whole. This way I can be more impartial.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Kobalos » 2013-10-15

Lanham (see? I got it right this time) hit the nail on the head. I like the second ruling better, but the first is fine. Stick with whichever one you want, Pat--that's your prerogative as Magistrate.

The best fix is exactly as Lanham said--take a proposal to Senate that makes it clear: weapons do not block arrows unless you're a monk. I'd cosponsor it in a heartbeat.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by exoduscleric » 2013-10-15

Holding a weapon between yourself and an archer might be done on the field, but I have always seen it as expoitation of the grey area involving the wording "intentionally blocked." It shouldn't be encouraged. The original clarification effectively gives everyone missile deflection as long as they pause while the arrow is in flight.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Halcon » 2013-10-15

I compleatly agree with Inox, Havoc & Exodus (*world ends) Knowingly putting a weapon between yourself & an archer is intentional blocking & there for against the rules, & it always has been whether enforced or not.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-10-15

-Inox- wrote:Missile weapons are different, Iltzafein, because:

1. You get an effectively limitless number of spear stabs.
2. You can apply a lot more force with a stab to push through/past weapons.
3. The rules are designed around blocking melee weapons with melee weapons and shields, and are generally balanced accordingly.

Using a weapon to hide behind, as a passive barrier for missiles, is using it as a shield. It's taking the fact that we allow courteously arrows that hit weapons to not count, and exploits it.

I don't disagree. I'm just stating that bringing up reality in this regard is kinda goofy.

Balance-wise, yeah, it makes sense. You only have so many arrows, but unlimited spear stabs.

The only part I would ever see as hard to enforce here is that sometimes an archer is standing next to somebody. If your swords are in front of you, you're probably blocking the other person, and not just the archer. If you are rushing at an archer alone with swords in front of you, you're a cheater.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by fingers630 » 2013-10-15

I agree with Lanham. Dont like ruling? Propose something to senate.
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My opinion, as opinions were asked for.

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-10-15

Here goes:

I don't shoot arrows more than twice a year, but I can feel for the archers out there. Passively or actively blocking an arrow is *. It's like me saying "I'll just walk around with my weapon flats facing out, all lazy-like. I'm not blocking, I'm chillin'. " This sort of behavior makes you a grey area exploiter AND a dingleberry.

How about if I take a pair of white axes and chill at a knee. I probably won't even get shot at. That is *, that is grey area, that * needs to go.

My real question is: why is this an issue? Is there a new "accidental arrow blocking culture" on the rise? Should be simple to sort out if a player is
A: Actively blocking an arrow = wound to arm, player/elder enforced
B: Incidental weapon/nonlegal location strike = no wounds, player/elder enforced
C: Player standing at passive arrow guard to "accidentally block" arrows= grey are exploitation, elder/ noble enforced. Warn'm ,bench'm do what it takes.

Scenario C is cheating, however you slice it. We don't need to make more rules, just stop people from doing this. Don't make more rules when people don't like to follow the ones we already have in the books.

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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by mardux zulammar » 2013-10-15

You guys are missing the point with the whole "take it Senate" stuff. That's the entire point of a clarification, to solve an issue until it can be taken to Senate. You're only using an obvious and redundant standpoint as an point of view.

I don't disagree that Pat has final say. I was simply stating my opinion. I don't expect him to retract his ruling just because I was "whining". That's his privilege since we elected him as magistrate.

My real concern is that (to me) the ruling seems unnecessary. It does not solve the problem as it was presented on here. The problem being that people were doing something that the rules clearly state causes a light wound to a limb. The first ruling that was made would be a change I'm the rules if it went to Senate because it goes from saying something CANNOT be done to saying that it can be done under certain circumstances. The second ruling only rewords what is already in the book.

This entire conflict is spawned from people not enforcing clearly written rules, not because of grey areas.
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Re: Blocking Arrows with Weapons

Post by Magistrate » 2013-10-15

I of all people are not afraid to put my foot down and stand by a ruling I made - do not be afraid of that :) rather in this case as I explained I am trying to listen to what our players think about the matter before making a final ruling. Thank you everyone honestly for taking the time to voice your opinions on the matter and I am glad we are having this discussion even if some people do not think the discussion is needed. That being said on Friday I will make my "final" ruling for 2013 and I invite all members of our organization to say what they think on the issue at hand and voice what they believe is the correct path to be taken.

Again thank you - in service,
Cailen

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