Alternatives to vancian system spells.

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BaiterofBAMC
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Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-24

Just pulling this from another topic. Our current spell system encourages lack of participation from mages until there is a situation where a spell dump is needed (final battle, mod etc.)

What are other alternatives to help engage mages to be able to engage in gameplay that won't be overpowering?

One idea was the concept of sustenance. In which the mage can only have so many spells on self before limiting his ability to cast other spells. I think of it as similar to the energy management system from the old x-wing vs tie fighter games.

Anyone else?

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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-02-24

I'll like this. Having to choose between offensive and defensive load outs is an intriguing idea.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Inox » 2012-02-24

Yeah, I really like the idea of sustenance. How much a Mage can do at any one time is really a critical factor.

Of course, I think there also needs to be a longer casting time for some things, but I believe that regardless of the points or sustenance system. :D
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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-02-24

Cormac was the one who came up with this idea. It sounded cool to me as well, but it fell through for some reason. If someone could contact him to bring it to this thread that would be awesome.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-02-24

How could you do this sustenance without it being a huge nerf, or at least being perceived as such? I'm not trying to detract, because this sounds really cool.

Mage is a good example class, because they are the most dependent on spell use and arguably the most powerful spellcaster in game. Vet mages are probably well accustomed to running around with their HB armor, magic shield and weapons of choice, and throwing fireballs. The best mages at the most optimal times will kill many people with a fireball or few, and then procede to beatdown any up close aggressors, all to survive and throw more fireballs. So to me, this sounds like the absolute minimum of sustenance: Shield, Skin, Spellball.

However, if you made that the limit of what can be sustained, they then have no Pro capes on themselves, or enchanted weapons etc...It would be a severe nerf.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-25

I contacted Cormac to present the idea here, but from what I remember the system removed all spellpoints and added sustenance points every 2-3 levels up to 12 or something.

I remember that it was purposely made impossible for the mage to have a full loadout and still be able to cast fireball.

The benefit to the sustenance system is the ability to cast without having to save up spellpoints, so mages could actively cast the whole day long. Honestly, It would make sense to nerf some spells due to the frequency of spells being used in combat.

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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-02-25

I like the idea, I just don't remember the specifics of it. I would like to see something cool come out of this.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-02-25

BaiterofBAMC wrote:I contacted Cormac to present the idea here, but from what I remember the system removed all spellpoints and added sustenance points every 2-3 levels up to 12 or something.

I remember that it was purposely made impossible for the mage to have a full loadout and still be able to cast fireball.

The benefit to the sustenance system is the ability to cast without having to save up spellpoints, so mages could actively cast the whole day long. Honestly, It would make sense to nerf some spells due to the frequency of spells being used in combat.



Are you talking about during adventure battles? How frequently are any spells cast during 2 teams?
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-02-25

While I like the idea, a thought does come to mind.
In one go, a mage can have pouch, the pouched spell, spell shield, and steel skin going, not to mention whatever spells they may be actively casting.

It would be a little difficult to keep this regulated.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-26

It's really a matter of appropriately allocating sustenance points and preventing a spellcaster from being able to cast everything at once. So we look at the max that they do and set it up so they can't cast everything by putting a hard cap limit.

So let's look at the battle mage loaded for bear.

Steelskin, shield, prot magic, fireball, pouch fireball.

Let's allocate steelskin with 2 points, shield with 1, prot magic with 2, fireball with 3, pouched fireball with 4 (1 for pouch, 3 for fb)

That is a total of 12 points of sustenance. So let's arbitrarily set the cap of sustenance at 9 for mages. That means the mage cannot do everything.

This is no more different than regulating spellcasters using spellpoints. It just provides an upper limit of what casters can all do all at once. It might require a tweaking of certain spells like magic shield since it already has a sustained effect that can be dispelled and re-activated at will, but it should work well.

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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-02-26

How is that enforced? Honor system?
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by ylinett » 2012-02-26

It is no more prone to cheating than a spell-point pool.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-02-26

I'm not worried about the "cheat" factor. I like to assume that the mages on the field are respectable kind of folk. :P
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-02-27

It's not spellcasting that people are complaining about. Have you ever heard of anyone complaining about that damn guy with protection from fire on? No.

People have a problem with fireball. Plain and simple.

Focus your attention there.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-02-27

The thing is that this would change how we do things now in a huge way. Think about it, during a war action everyone and their mom has a pro fire cape on. This would change that, now you have to pick one or two guys, and still wanna cast fireball. You wanna giant growth your whole country, your gonna have to choose one or two guys now.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-02-27

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:The thing is that this would change how we do things now in a huge way. Think about it, during a war action everyone and their mom has a pro fire cape on. This would change that, now you have to pick one or two guys, and still wanna cast fireball. You wanna giant growth your whole country, your gonna have to choose one or two guys now.

Perhaps we can make it so that protection from ___ spells are immune? Or even say that casting it at all means you can cast it on X amount of people depending on your level, and only the first one counts against your total?
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-02-27

Sir Gwydion wrote:It's not spellcasting that people are complaining about. Have you ever heard of anyone complaining about that damn guy with protection from fire on? No.

People have a problem with fireball. Plain and simple.

Focus your attention there.


I don't think the purpose of this is to fix anyone's complaint about fireball or any other spell. It's to think of a new way to handle spells without a spell point pool system to eliminate the mana dump that apparently happens (I don't play a mage, I have no idea if it does or not).

The sustenance idea effectively limits fireball though by forcing a combat role on a wizard. Do you buff and protect, use utility spells, or destroy? You can't do all three as effectively under that system but what you can do is switch roles all day and still be involved in the fight every time. To have as many fireballs as we do now, everyone would have to fore-go other spells in favor of it and that's not always going to be the best course of action.

For example, if we're going up against a dragon and I think we need pro fire capes, I would spend my sustenance on those and maybe my own steelskin and that's it, maybe I could still throw lightning, maybe not. No fireballs for me. If we're ok on defense, then I would buff/protect myself and toss fire.

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:The thing is that this would change how we do things now in a huge way. Think about it, during a war action everyone and their mom has a pro fire cape on. This would change that, now you have to pick one or two guys, and still wanna cast fireball. You wanna giant growth your whole country, your gonna have to choose one or two guys now.


It's definitely going to change things, but change is not necessarily bad. Changing things allows for new tactics to develop and new challenges to happen. In other words, it keeps it from getting stale.

One thing I see changing is non-combat spell use. Any changes will affect all spells, not just the combat related ones. Take passwall for instance. If I don't have to worry about spell points and have one sustenance available (or whatever it would cost) I can go around casting it all day long. That's not necessarily bad, just something to consider. With the spell point system, a sufficiently high level mage could do that anyway though.

EDIT: That makes it sound like this is the best thing since sliced bread. That remains to be seen. I merely was pointing out that it can possibly limit fireball use while creating variety amongst the mages in regards to what they are doing with their magic.
Last edited by Ogre Solaris on 2012-02-27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by fingers630 » 2012-02-27

Grrr lost my reply, stupid board.

As I said before text was lost, the sustenance Idea sounds cool, but 9pts is far too low, especially for a rank 20+ spell caster.

How would it work exactly? If I dedicated a slot to fireball, I could throw them all day long? And you think there are too many fireballs now, imagine the huge amount you would see at a final battle if this were the case. Even Arioch's lvl 60ish arse runs out of spell points eventually.

So what would the costs look like? Something like:

0 point slots:
Magic Missile
Light

1 pt slots:
Comp Languages
Mending
Feign Death
Truth Speak
Magic Shield
Burning Hands
Lightning Bolt
Truth Speak
Speak With Dead
Hold Portal
Detect Traps
Dispel Magic
Ice Storm
Legend Lore
Charge Item
Animate Dead
Enchant Item (limited to X # of items per Y rank of caster)
Release Portal
Stone Skin
Passwall
Protection Spells (limited to X # per Y rank of caster)

2 point slots
Steel Skin
Growth
Gaseous Form
Fireball
Spell of Shielding
Pouch


Set your point caps at levels 6, 11, and 16
Say 5 points at lvls 1-5. This lets low level casters use a shield, mend, and lightning bolt all day, and have 2 pts left for utility stuff.

10pts for lvl 6-10. This allows for stoneskin, magic shield, fireball, protection cape and 5 pts left over for utility spells. You could also go the steelskin route and have 4 left over.

12pts for lvl 11-15

14pts for lvl 16+

This would allow for a mage to walk around with steelskin, magic shield, enchanted weapon, spell of shielding, fireball, pouch for 10pts, then 4 pts leftover for whatever they wanted to pouch and utility (pro capes, etc) of course they could drop pouch and shielding for 8pts of casting whatever they wanted, be able to fireball all day, and fight with protections (shield, steelskin)
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-02-27

FYI, I think this was the original posting of sustenance from the unofficial boards. It was not fully fleshed out though. http://darkonsunofficialmessageboard.yu ... ell-change

Honestly, it would take a lot of work and would warrant some testing before an actual proposal would be made. Changing something like how all spells work has lots of effects that may not be predictable at first. I still like the idea though. I'm having trouble coming up with my own non-point, non-Vancian method so far.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-02-28

This is the text from Cormac's post.

Here's a weird idea. Straight out of the weird zone. It has its weird zone passport and everything. NOTE: Not meant to deal with area of effect, except obliquely. It is meant to provide a new way of thinking about ongoing effects that doesn't require spell point accounting, and provokes honesty amongst casters (as well as an easy to understand rule of thumb about how many people in a given group might have protections, by watching who is among them. In contained situations, you could even make an accounting of this immediately! Just from looking at people!)

Spell points go away.

Remove reductions.

Convert spell points into "sustenance". You gain 1 sustenance per 3 levels. The idea here is to distinguish between beginner casters (don't have any real use for sustenance anyway except for themselves) intermediates (have all the abilities but not enough power to use them all the time) and big time casters (defined as 30th rank+)

Spells that aren't instant effects are sustained. They require a certain amount of sustenance to operate. (maybe 1 for single type protections/barkskin/stoneskin etc, 2 for steelskin/SoS/sanctuary/gaseous form? maybe certain basic things require 0 sustenance and just require recasting if dispelled- magic shield i am looking at you) Spells that require sustenance go on for as long as the sustainer cares to keep them going, even past his death. Sustained spells don't work outside of line of sight of the caster. Yes, this means if you kill a mage, all the stuff he has going on his group goes away exactly when he buzzes off to Hades.

Spells that are instant effects require a certain number of open sustenance slots in order to operate. I'd say offhand that anything that does a textbook damage code and has no area effect, repairs a hit, or does some kind of adventure stuff needs 1, anything with an effect like holding you still, doing/repairing multiple hits, or the like needs 2, and anything with area of effect or that can bring you back from the dead needs 3.

OPTIONAL: pouch/magic stone/prayer touch go away. If they don't, assign them a requirement of 5 sustenance.

The effect: You have to choose between spells that attack, or spells that provide a defense, until you are pretty high in level. You might have to drop everyone's protections in order to make a thing happen, even at extreme levels of caster class. Timing of effects would no longer matter. Probably requires serious rejiggering of spell levels, possibly to onerous degrees. did you know this is just like dragon age?!

I will write more on this later- this is completely stream of consciousness and not really thought through 100%- that is why it is from the weird zone.


Not a fully fleshed out idea, but it's something to think about.

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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-03-07

I had a long conversation with a friend of mine from PA who used to be my DM back in the day and since then we have modded or downright created from scratch more RPGs than I can count. This is all pen and paper, but still it helps to have done it a few times.

We discussed this and while I like the sustenance idea, I thought there has to be another way. After several hours of me shooting stuff down because it was impractical (he doesn't play Darkon, Dag, or any other combat oriented LARP game so has no frame of reference) we came up with one simple fact... if we change the magic system it's going to piss off a lot of people and you have to just let them be mad if you think it's the right thing to do.

With that in mind, we came up with a few things.

The big one is that spell points go away, both for simplicity sake and because some of these other changes make that not such a big deal. Here are some of the changes we talked about.

1. Spread out spell progression past level 10. Maybe to 20 or 25. There are several ranks, possibly all of them, where casters get multiple spells per level. That seems very clunky, kind of like in D&D where you level and suddenly you get this huge boost of power all at once. A spell per level for 20+ levels would give you some incentive to play longer. Face it, if I show up to every event for a year and just play I can gain 6 or 7 levels a year. 22 credits for day events, 12 for campouts is 34 which is 6 and 2/5 levels and that doesn't count NPC, Elder, Senator, or charity credits (are we doing those this year?) or credit transfer. You can almost get 10 levels a year with those.

2. If you're spreading out spells, do away with gradual reductions. The incentive to level is now to get spells, not to get reductions. Eventually, maybe 5 or 10 levels after the spell is gained, you should get it reduced to half it's original length, which will give incentive to level to 30+.

3. Limit some spells that would be ridiculous if given unlimited casts. Growth, Protection capes, recharge item just for some example. That list isn't exhaustive, but if I growthed everyone and put pro. fire capes on them we would all be giants with super hero capes on and it would be stupid looking not to mention not fun for anyone else. You can limit it to X castings per level, another incentive to push your level higher.

4. Nerf/buff some of the spells. This is mainly mage damage dealing spells I'm talking about here. Make lightning bolt higher level, longer, and do green damage but only to the target hit by it. Make fireball low level, possibly shorter, and do the following
- If it hits an individual it does black to the location hit.
- if it hits the person's shield, destroy the shield and do black to the torso (snuck in some shield break there)
- regardless of whether or not it hits a person, 3ft radius from the point of impact takes white (or black maybe)to the torso.
This allows fireball to do crowd control and weaken large groups without killing them all outright while lightning bolt becomes the killing spell. It might even be ok to allow fireball to retain radius inside buildings provided we can get structures enlarged to accommodate our fat asses in the first place.

5. Magic missile as a weapon. Currently, it's nice that low level wizards can toss MM around for free. With unlimited spell points though, that's a moot point. I say nerf MM to white damage (so it's not as strong as the nerfed fireball), maybe rename it to something else as not to confuse it with the wand of gartan's magic missiles, and reduce the casting time so wizards can actually throw spells as a viable alternative to weapons. You know, like wizards would. No one would force you to, but it's possible now.

This allows for unlimited casting of combat oriented spells and limited casting of some of the spells I consider sustained (growth, protection capes, etc.) and reduces effectiveness of the hated fireball but makes it destroy shields and gives the mage a single target instant kill spell in its place.

This might require re-working of the ship to ship battles due to reduced effectiveness of fireball, or maybe not since out current nuclear bomb fireball should probably sink a ship outright instead of slowly burn it like it does today, the weaker fireball makes more sense to be able to slowly burn the ship until it sinks. Also there's the matter of blowing open gates.

Still, what do you think? Is there any merit to my discussion? I understand this will change the way we fight and cast spells, but I thought that was the point so I'm not really concerned with people hating this just because it's different. Like I said, it will piss people off and sometimes you just have to.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by BaiterofBAMC » 2012-03-08

Look at the armor discussion. You're going to have to break some eggs to make an omelette.

That sounds pretty cool. Now as for all of these things that we talk about, it mostly affects mages, but how would it affect the Cleric? One of the difficulties that taking away spellpoints helps control is the number of healing spells that a cleric can cast. As it is, there is a finite amount of times you can ressurect someone. How would we counter this buff to clerical spells? Here's a top of the head thought. Get rid of Ressurect and only be able to cure mortal.

I like the changes to the focus of lightning bolt and fireball. Right now it's just a progression of damage. Right now it's a no brainer to have a pro fire cape on a ship battle. Changing the focus of fireball to crowd control is a great idea. Also like how it just does greater damage to the one you hit. It forces players to aim at people instead of at feet to get splash kills. (You can also sneak an evasion skill for the agile classes this way. )

Not a big fan of the removal of reductions. It doesn't make sense that that after casting a spell for 5-10 levels, you just magically get better at it.


As for the concern about ships and structure battles, I'm not worried about it as people will figure out what to do best in that situation. The changes to lightning bolt and fireball are enough to totally change the dynamics of ships and siege warfare for the better. It's boring as hell to watch crews sit back and shoot bolts at each other.

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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Ogre Solaris » 2012-03-08

I hadn't gotten to clerics, druids, rangers, etc yet. After posting that I re-thought it and it's a huge buff to druids only because they also get lightning bolt. If people are ok with that though, I would like to see how it would play out to have lightning be the killing spell and fireball be the wounding spell instead of vice versa.

Resurrect and healing could be one of the spells limited by level like protection spells or growth. This is a work in progress and up for discussion here. Not all of the things there need be implemented together as one either.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Inox » 2012-03-08

I love the idea of Fireball being crowd control & Lightning being a deadlier target kill.

Also, as a bit of trivia, in 1st Edition D&D, which we based a lot of things on, Lightning Bolt & Fireball were of equivalent power. Ice Storm was more powerful than both. So, we shouldn't be too wedded to our current modes, really. Whatever works best is what we should use.
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Re: Alternatives to vancian system spells.

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-03-08

I don't think we should get rid of resurrection. If anything, we can just tweak the sustenance of each class. Mages would get a high number, clerics/druids a lower number, and maybe a ranger with a lower one. You could even add in the rulebook that the difference in numbers is because of the origin of power. Mages use arcane, clerics use divine, and rangers/druids use nature.
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