A Challange - Legal Hits

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A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by President » 2012-05-01

Ok Darkon. RAW rule enforcement part III.

A hit is the act of striking an opposing player with a weapon to cause damage. Hits must connect with their target solidly to count. A solid weapon hit is a hit that lands firmly and stops momentarily or changes direction when it strikes a target. Weapon glances do no damage. When fighting, weapons should be swung with the entire arm to avoid arguments. Each strike should be felt, but a legal hit is a legal hit, regardless of if the hit is felt or not. A player wearing armor should be even more aware of his hits; not feeling a hit is not an excuse for cheating.


My ruling on the above is this: NO SUCH THING AS LIGHT!! If it hits you, is a full arm swing, it counts. SOLID /= HARD.

So my challenge to the Club is to re-write this entire section so that it makes sense and can't be interpreted one way or another. A real definition of a legal hit.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by LordTyrantCort » 2012-05-01

Wow that's one hell of a challenge... For one mans Soild is another's light, meaning Whitegirl can't build enough power to hit hard enough for lughead to feel it as Soild, but she is using a full arm swing.

It's two people interpreting two, split second actions, and judging those against their own views of the Opinions.

Simple is best, Soild is a matter of opinion. A hit is a hit. If you feel it, it's legal.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-05-01

Warlordcort wrote:Wow that's one hell of a challenge... For one mans Soild is another's light, meaning Whitegirl can't build enough power to hit hard enough for lughead to feel it as Soild, but she is using a full arm swing.

It's two people interpreting two, split second actions, and judging those against their own views of the Opinions.

Simple is best, Soild is a matter of opinion. A hit is a hit. If you feel it, it's legal.


Yeah, this one is not easy. There are perfectly legal hits that people may not feel and illegal hits that can be easily felt. Whether you feel it or not is not the issue and thus the problem.

Also note there is nothing about flats in this, and I can't find anything in the rulebook about it. So while common sense is that a flat doesn't count, it is not in the rules.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-05-01

How do other games spell this out?
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-05-01

Sir Gwydion wrote:How do other games spell this out?


Belegarth - 3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area.

Dagirhir - 3.4.1 - A hit from a hand-held weapon counts when the weapon's striking surface hits with sufficient force. Clarification: taps, grazing, and glancing shots do not count as sufficient force.

3.4.2 - Hits from projectile weapons count when the head of the weapon merely strikes the target: stopping or being slightly deflected.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-05-01

The problem we have is people using the word "light" as a misnomer for glancing blows and non-full swings. The only thing IMO we need to improve on is getting the word "light" out of our vocabulary. Just my 2 copper...the rule makes perfect sense, has worked well for us, and your interpretation of it is a clear reiteration of what it states.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by jayjay » 2012-05-01

Sir Gwydion wrote:How do other games spell this out?


amtgard RoP v7.7 wrote:A valid hit is any shot that makes contact and stops or deflects at an angle.

atmgard RoP v8 proposal wrote:Wounds may be inflicted by contacting a Hit Location with the Strike-Legal portion of a Weapon. Shots from Melee Weapons fall into two broad categories:

Slash: A valid slash must be Percussive (contact with an audible pop) and stop on or deflect off the victim.

Stab: A valid stab should strike with the tip and stop on or deflect off the victim.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... FLq1P40V-8 - V8 full proposal

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-05-01

I feel that light is a good word though. If someone swings and there is not enough juice on it, or its a wiggle, its light. Also, if someone is swinging and when you block you take all the power out of there shot, that hit is not a hit.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-05-01

From that link:
How To Inflict Wounds

Wounds may be inflicted by contacting a Hit Location with the Strike-Legal portion of a Weapon. Shots from Melee Weapons fall into two broad categories: 1. Slash: A valid slash must be Percussive (contact with an audible pop) and stop on or deflect off the victim.

1. Stab: A valid stab should strike with the tip and stop on or deflect off the victim.

These requirements do not apply to projectile weapons. Any contact from the Strike-Legal portion of bU a projectile weapon will cause a Wound unless otherwise noted.

Some contacts which partially fulfill the above criteria are listed here as examples of invalid shots.

Examples of Invalid Shots: 1. Grazes: Slashes that are neither Percussive nor stop/deflect. 2. Draw Cuts: Stabs which fail to strike with the tip. These contacts slide against a victim instead of impacting cleanly. 3. Pushes: These contacts are pushed into or slid against a victim after the initial motion was completely blocked and the initial motion had stopped.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-05-01

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I feel that light is a good word though. If someone swings and there is not enough juice on it, or its a wiggle, its light. Also, if someone is swinging and when you block you take all the power out of there shot, that hit is not a hit.


I can not seem to stress this enough. There is no hit calibration. If it hits you, is a full arm swing. It is a legal hit. "Not enough juice" is a way of saying not hard enough and there is nothing regarding that in our rules.

This is exactly the problem. If it is glancing, say glancing, if it is a skim, say skim.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sancho » 2012-05-01

Lord Dubh wrote:
Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I feel that light is a good word though. If someone swings and there is not enough juice on it, or its a wiggle, its light. Also, if someone is swinging and when you block you take all the power out of there shot, that hit is not a hit.


I can not seem to stress this enough. There is no hit calibration. If it hits you, is a full arm swing. It is a legal hit. "Not enough juice" is a way of saying not hard enough and there is nothing regarding that in our rules.

This is exactly the problem. If it is glancing, say glancing, if it is a skim, say skim.


Light has pretty much always been the shorthand version of "that was glancing" or "That was a draw cut" in just about every system like ours that I have been a part of. I think the problem is that many have assumed that a call of "light" actually means "that shot was too light" and now the idea of a "light hit" has become an excepted thing. So I think it is less about changing the language (although that might help) and more about changing the acceptance of the idea that if the swing doesn't hit hard enough it doesn't count. The rules seem pretty clear. It is the actual on the field implementation that would have to change.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Ericson » 2012-05-01

This is what I have seen over the past 3 years. Please note, I always fight on a line. I don't have the chance to observe many skirmisher fights.

Generally, when someone in Darkon dies, they are being pummeled to the point where counting hits becomes impossible. My personal experience, both being hit and seeing others hit, is that this makes up about 75% of death in Darkon. When there are more than 3 people in front of me, and I am not a Red Dragon in a Land Action, I accept that I am going to die unless Inox comes running up behind my opponents and ganking them.

I'd attribute 15% or so to what I will call lucky shots, or ganking, whichever you prefer. When that Archer hits you on your chainmail-covered chest from 45 feet away, or someone walks up behind you and gives you a little "red red red" action. Most people miss these, because they are so out of the blue that you aren't expecting to look that way. An arrow doesn't produce enough force to be real noticeable, I've been hit in the arm plenty of times and not noticed it until I see the arrow falling to the ground. Same problem with flails. As a frequent flail user, I often times hit people in the head 5-6 times before they'll drop, especially anyone wearing a helmet. Is it annoying? Yeah, sometimes. But the only way to prevent that would be to make flails heavier and UNSAFE. I'd rather someone not call a few hits than have a concussion.

I rarely see contests where 1 or 2 hits really matters. That would be the other 10%. So as far as I am concerned, this is a really moot point and is going to impact a very small portion of the game. Plus, most of the people I see calling light are either:
1. Vets/Nobles/EB
2. AR 0 and 1 users

As far as the heavy armor folks go, it happens. Steel is pretty good at deflecting a blow, from a real sword or a foam one. For the vets, I've seen them call "light" and bend the rules more than anyone else. I assume because nobody will challenge them on it, I would never say "Prince/Baron/Lord/King so-and-so got hit 7 times with my spear and they didn't take any of the hits." I've had plenty of fights with Vets, Nobles, and EB members where they shrug off hits, call light on everything I throw at them, or count costume items as armor when they do not fit the requirements. Nobody does anything about it, so I just go on about my day and keep fighting.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-05-01

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:I feel that light is a good word though. If someone swings and there is not enough juice on it, or its a wiggle, its light. Also, if someone is swinging and when you block you take all the power out of there shot, that hit is not a hit.


If a newbie or the rare weakling swings on you and doesn't know how to produce a "hard shot" but it's still a full arm swing, it is a hit. If someone takes a shot at you, and you block "most of it" but the weapon still comes in contact with you, it's a hit.

Ex. Fighter A swings on Fighter B. Fighter A's weapon has 90% of its momentum halted by fighter B's blocking action, but the remaining 10% forces the weapon of Fighter A into contact with Fighter B's arm.

This is a hit. It may be light on contact, but if the same situation occurred with live steel you'd have a nasty gouge in your arm.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-05-02

^ I do not agree. I can give you an example of my first event. I walked up to an Elidorian in plate mail and hit him in the leg. I got told it was not a good shot and that it was light shot, light being not hard enough. Ever since then, when I swing I strive to hit hard. I also expect to get hit hard.

If a newbie or weakling is playing the game, they should be taught to not do such things. Thats what you do when someone is in your country, you help them out if they are not doing stuff right. Also, if someone blocks your shot and you continue to push it into me and there is very little force, I will call your * light. Its hard to explain on the forum but if you would like an example I will gladly show you.

This game has had hit calibration since I started playing, and that is the way that I play. I don't see where some people are saying that that is not so. No one has bitched about it till now. I feel that if you say a legal hit is just a hit that has a full arm swing, it will lead to some dubious *.

Also, these rules say what I am talking about. These games are at our level of intensity and are full contact. They pretty much give the impression that you need to hit hard and not just tag someone. I have been guilty of this in the past, but hits really do need to be solid, and hard.

Belegarth - 3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area.

Dagirhir - 3.4.1 - A hit from a hand-held weapon counts when the weapon's striking surface hits with sufficient force. Clarification: taps, grazing, and glancing shots do not count as sufficient force.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sancho » 2012-05-02

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:^ I do not agree. I can give you an example of my first event. I walked up to an Elidorian in plate mail and hit him in the leg. I got told it was not a good shot and that it was light shot, light being not hard enough. Ever since then, when I swing I strive to hit hard. I also expect to get hit hard.

If a newbie or weakling is playing the game, they should be taught to not do such things. Thats what you do when someone is in your country, you help them out if they are not doing stuff right. Also, if someone blocks your shot and you continue to push it into me and there is very little force, I will call your * light. Its hard to explain on the forum but if you would like an example I will gladly show you.

This game has had hit calibration since I started playing, and that is the way that I play. I don't see where some people are saying that that is not so. No one has * about it till now. I feel that if you say a legal hit is just a hit that has a full arm swing, it will lead to some dubious *.

Also, these rules say what I am talking about. These games are at our level of intensity and are full contact. They pretty much give the impression that you need to hit hard and not just tag someone. I have been guilty of this in the past, but hits really do need to be solid, and hard.

Belegarth - 3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area.

Dagirhir - 3.4.1 - A hit from a hand-held weapon counts when the weapon's striking surface hits with sufficient force. Clarification: taps, grazing, and glancing shots do not count as sufficient force.


You are not alone in feeling there is a hit calibration in Darkon and most other systems, but it is not in the actual rules. The Elidorian you fought was actually wrong. As long as your shot was not glancing and was a full swing he should have taken the shot.
You are correct that your country and others in the game should help newer players get better. This would include faster more accurate swings that will result in harder hits, but that does not mean the initial shots should be ignored. And again, pushing though a defense is not a legal hit under the rules if it is from a new player or a veteran of the game. A swing that is only partially blocked and still hits is a hit in Darkon. Those are two very different things.
And while the game has been played with a hit calibration since you started playing, it does not mean it actually has one. The rules have nothing about "light hits". As long as the blow is solid (makes good contact) it is a legal hit by rule definition. And as far as dubious stuff going on if the rule is enforced the way it is written, your example of your early experience against an Elidorian shows it already does, but in the other direction. I had almost the exact same experience when I first came to Darkon. I was told my swings had been too light so the person did not count them. He saw me as new and inexperienced and so my shots were "weak". The truth of the matter was I had been fighting Dag and other similar systems for over a dozen years and had been practicing with my countrymen and others in Darkon for over 2 months. My shots were perfectly legal and of sufficient force and had been in every system and practice I had been to. My shots (just like yours) were perfectly valid, but ignored.
And in the rules you site from Dag, this idea of "light hits" is not present. Dag specifically talks about taps, grazes and glancing shots, and not about an actual force minimum. But that is really beside the point, as we are not playing Dag or Bel, we are playing Darkon. And in Darkon there is no concept of "light hits" in the rules. Any blow that is solid should be counted. If people are not doing that, then they are not following the rules of Darkon.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by shroom2021 » 2012-05-02

In a game with so much armor there ought to be a ruling on how light hits are taken.
If you can see the hit land there is no reason not to take it. Hit hard take light is the mantra I have been told to abide by.
However if you can't see the hit and your armor which is by design dispersing the force of the impact to such a degree that it does not register to you in the midst of all the other things bumping against you and pushing you around, then I don't think it is right to consider it cheating.

I would say we should acknowledge the light hit as a legal shot but only if the receiving player can see it.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-05-02

Sancho wrote:
Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:^ I do not agree. I can give you an example of my first event. I walked up to an Elidorian in plate mail and hit him in the leg. I got told it was not a good shot and that it was light shot, light being not hard enough. Ever since then, when I swing I strive to hit hard. I also expect to get hit hard.

If a newbie or weakling is playing the game, they should be taught to not do such things. Thats what you do when someone is in your country, you help them out if they are not doing stuff right. Also, if someone blocks your shot and you continue to push it into me and there is very little force, I will call your * light. Its hard to explain on the forum but if you would like an example I will gladly show you.

This game has had hit calibration since I started playing, and that is the way that I play. I don't see where some people are saying that that is not so. No one has * about it till now. I feel that if you say a legal hit is just a hit that has a full arm swing, it will lead to some dubious *.

Also, these rules say what I am talking about. These games are at our level of intensity and are full contact. They pretty much give the impression that you need to hit hard and not just tag someone. I have been guilty of this in the past, but hits really do need to be solid, and hard.

Belegarth - 3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area.

Dagirhir - 3.4.1 - A hit from a hand-held weapon counts when the weapon's striking surface hits with sufficient force. Clarification: taps, grazing, and glancing shots do not count as sufficient force.


You are not alone in feeling there is a hit calibration in Darkon and most other systems, but it is not in the actual rules. The Elidorian you fought was actually wrong. As long as your shot was not glancing and was a full swing he should have taken the shot.
You are correct that your country and others in the game should help newer players get better. This would include faster more accurate swings that will result in harder hits, but that does not mean the initial shots should be ignored. And again, pushing though a defense is not a legal hit under the rules if it is from a new player or a veteran of the game. A swing that is only partially blocked and still hits is a hit in Darkon. Those are two very different things.
And while the game has been played with a hit calibration since you started playing, it does not mean it actually has one. The rules have nothing about "light hits". As long as the blow is solid (makes good contact) it is a legal hit by rule definition. And as far as dubious stuff going on if the rule is enforced the way it is written, your example of your early experience against an Elidorian shows it already does, but in the other direction. I had almost the exact same experience when I first came to Darkon. I was told my swings had been too light so the person did not count them. He saw me as new and inexperienced and so my shots were "weak". The truth of the matter was I had been fighting Dag and other similar systems for over a dozen years and had been practicing with my countrymen and others in Darkon for over 2 months. My shots were perfectly legal and of sufficient force and had been in every system and practice I had been to. My shots (just like yours) were perfectly valid, but ignored.
And in the rules you site from Dag, this idea of "light hits" is not present. Dag specifically talks about taps, grazes and glancing shots, and not about an actual force minimum. But that is really beside the point, as we are not playing Dag or Bel, we are playing Darkon. And in Darkon there is no concept of "light hits" in the rules. Any blow that is solid should be counted. If people are not doing that, then they are not following the rules of Darkon.



This post wins!!

Now, someone up for the challenge????
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by President » 2012-05-02

viewforum.php?f=3

Elders will enforce this ruling until the Senate changes it.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-05-02

Ericson wrote:I've had plenty of fights with Vets, Nobles, and EB members where they shrug off hits, call light on everything I throw at them, or count costume items as armor when they do not fit the requirements. Nobody does anything about it, so I just go on about my day and keep fighting.


If you don't report them, or at least call them a whole heard of * behind their back, nothing will ever change. Hit hard, take light.

PadreCaedes wrote:

Ex. Fighter A swings on Fighter B. Fighter A's weapon has 90% of its momentum halted by fighter B's blocking action, but the remaining 10% forces the weapon of Fighter A into contact with Fighter B's arm.

This is a hit. It may be light on contact, but if the same situation occurred with live steel you'd have a nasty gouge in your arm.


I disagree with every notion of this post. If 10% of the swing has made it through, it basically touches you. That is not a good hit. It's a bit of a fine line, but not really. And the same goes with live steel. Swung swords are almost never very sharp. 10% of the swing from say a viking sword, will probably bruise you a little.... maybe. But we can't prove this easily, so it's a dumb argument. Just sayin' though. I disagree entirely.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-05-02

President wrote:viewforum.php?f=3

Elders will enforce this ruling until the Senate changes it.

John Machate


*sigh* aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand here go the arguments on the field... awesome. Senate, please fix this asap.

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Thrush Svartehjertet » 2012-05-02

Lord Dubh wrote:A hit from a hand-held weapon counts when the weapon's striking surface hits with sufficient force. Clarification: taps, grazing, and glancing shots do not count as sufficient force.


Some form of this seems to make the most sense to me.... btw. I would maybe ad that force does not matter if the weapon is swung in a full arm motion (thus allowing for a small timid participant to RP a "fighter").

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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Lord Dubh » 2012-05-02

jayjay wrote:
Sir Gwydion wrote:How do other games spell this out?



atmgard RoP v8 proposal wrote:Wounds may be inflicted by contacting a Hit Location with the Strike-Legal portion of a Weapon. Shots from Melee Weapons fall into two broad categories:

Slash: A valid slash must be Percussive (contact with an audible pop) and stop on or deflect off the victim.

Stab: A valid stab should strike with the tip and stop on or deflect off the victim.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... FLq1P40V-8 - V8 full proposal


This doesn't suck.

The idea SHOULD be to disallow NERO style hits which are literally taps. Think of it this way, the so called 'courtesy taps' that a few of us do when someone is on the ground is an example of what NERO does for regular hits.

I also don't think the ruling currently enacted will be an issue. Very few people in this club actually call shots light and refuse to take them. Most of the people I know will take a shot that is not very hard and tell the person to hit harder, but they still take the hit. As it should be.

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:
Lord Dubh wrote:A hit from a hand-held weapon counts when the weapon's striking surface hits with sufficient force. Clarification: taps, grazing, and glancing shots do not count as sufficient force.


Some form of this seems to make the most sense to me.... btw. I would maybe ad that force does not matter if the weapon is swung in a full arm motion (thus allowing for a small timid participant to RP a "fighter").

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I agree.

The full arm motion thing is problematic as well since some of the shots taught by the Sword Knight video's are NOT full arm swings but are hard enough to meet the 'percussive' requirement of Amtgard.
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sir Gwydion » 2012-05-02

I think that this deserves a special committee. No single person will be able to tackle this on their own. I volunteer to be a part of this committee.

The committee's scope should be to develop a legal definition of a hit in Darkon to be submitted to senate as a proposal and be given a set timeframe in which to accomplish its goal. I believe that 6 events is plenty of time.
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PadreCaedes
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Joined: 2012-01-16
Location: Temple of Khorne

Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by PadreCaedes » 2012-05-02

PadreCaedes wrote:

Ex. Fighter A swings on Fighter B. Fighter A's weapon has 90% of its momentum halted by fighter B's blocking action, but the remaining 10% forces the weapon of Fighter A into contact with Fighter B's arm.

This is a hit. It may be light on contact, but if the same situation occurred with live steel you'd have a nasty gouge in your arm.


I disagree with every notion of this post. If 10% of the swing has made it through, it basically touches you. That is not a good hit. It's a bit of a fine line, but not really. And the same goes with live steel. Swung swords are almost never very sharp. 10% of the swing from say a viking sword, will probably bruise you a little.... maybe. But we can't prove this easily, so it's a dumb argument. Just sayin' though. I disagree entirely.

Thrush
berserk[/quote]


Perhaps 10% was an inappropriate number for what I was trying to convey. The point I was trying to reach is that some folk will "block a shot" but it will still contact them farther down the blade, sometimes weaker, sometimes with equal strength. This is a hit.
Warmaster Caedes, Kinslayer
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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Re: A Challange - Legal Hits

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2012-05-02

I will definitely volunteer to be on a committee to change this rule. Count me in.
~No Quarter!~
~Warriors Guild~
~Knight of Tuesday~
~"Winning is teaching, losing is learning"~

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